S2k motors don't count. Those things come factory with forged pistons and rods and some kinda crazy valve treatment. Add a 3mm headgasket to drop compression and ARP studs and those are built for boost.

Lol that classic rice vid kills me every time.

"O shit.. Ooo shiiit!!.. O mai Gaahh!!"

I guess, 300ish was I remember for b series stock motors, like I said things change. H22s I remember making good power depending on the year if they where open or closed deck, but they are in a prelude which IMO isn't a "great" chasis. Then if you talking putting other motors in other cars and the price goes up a lot. Aren't people making 300hp on 1.8 engine stock? There is no doubt there more cheap parts for hondas just a bigger base of people, I just don't share the same view of a gap on price performance.

Now I know where they got the terminology 12 turn motor...LOL


Awesome!


The main reason I prefer the BP platform is, you blow up an engine or fuck up the CH, a quick visit to the junkyard will get you back to boosted power in no time. The block and CH can be found on Ford Escort GTs, Mercury Tracer, Kia, Mazda Protege, the options are a dime a dozen, no hassle with minimal ATM withdrawal, (thats beer money).

In the contrary, fuck up a V-Tec head or throw a rod through the engine block and decide to go to the junkyard. IF you are lucky you may find a "maybe" in good condition part. 9 out of 10 when there is a complete Honda engine in the JY its because you were the first one to see the car or the engine is useless.

For boosted applications for what must of all will be seeing in terms of HP, the BP is good enough.

Besides the Honda market is ridiculously over-priced, it just takes a quick look on CL and many punk kids think the Honda badge itself is enough to justify the price tag.

You can score easily, if you do your homework, a nice well maintained Miata for a fair price.

I don't agree with honda stuff being overpriced. Around here civic parts are dirt cheap

Just compare prices between a complete engine, cylinder head and block, from a junkyard.

Besides price, I dont know about your area, but here anything that is Eclipse or Honda is gone, but Mazda there are always parts available.

In regards to power per liter, once you go boosted its a total different ball game. The BP block can take such a beating compared to honda engines. Cam profile, overlap change with turbo applications.

In fact, all turbo hondas that are running all balls out do not have the fabulous v-tec.

A buddy of mine used to have a 240Dl volvo turbocharged, and that shyt was ridiclously fast for such a heavy chassis.

For boosted applications, the BP block hands down, for all motor then Hondas takes the pick.

Thats true for some honda engines, but only the ones that were either not sold here or only sold in low numbers.
D series engines are all over the place and you can get a complete running long block in good condition for 100 bucks.
Most honda people dont want them because theyre fucking idiots and think that DOHC > SOHC.
LSs and B20s are cheap too, since they sold a ton of LS integras and a ton of CRVs.

I would do a B20 or a Big turbo single cammer if i were to do a honda.

I swapped a B16A into my CRX, but had I known then what I know now, I would have built the D16A6 and turbo'd it. For around the same money as the swap, I could have been making lots more unusable power.

Yah dude 350 bucks for a set of Eagle H beams, 150 bucks for Suzuki Vitara pistons, and 100 bucks for ARP head studs.

Thats a built bottom end proven to over 600hp and it only cost 600 bucks.

Lots of people have made 350+hp on that bottom end and a stock head/IM as well. Add a cam and valve springs and you can get over 500.

Its hilarious how little respect the D series gets, when its honestly a very good engine to boost. The VTEC B series have such big cams and ports from the factory that they lag all day.

Yep. The Vitara wasn't out when I had mine but I'm not flaming. Even with a set of $400 pistons it would have been a good way to go. I sold my Si engine to a local Jax guy for $150.

BTW if you saw a red '90 CRX Si with CF hood and extended studs running around Jax and looking otherwise stock, that was me.

I disagree... 400hp is easy on an B series Honda. K series is simple to do 400 :) But I think you know that part.

Are these quoted power levels good for only the street, or for track duty?

K-series better have some serious cash.

d-series.org is one good website where there is from the ultimate tard 400 hp stock internals to serious from the ground up builds.

I opened a account a while back and just love the completely fail threads, bent rods, melted pistons threads.

Pushing more than 300 hp on stock internals is a ticking time bomb.

Street/Drag. I dont think the cast pistons would stand up to road racing at 500 hp. But there are some road racers running vitara built bottom ends. Ill have to look up what kind of power theyre making safely.

Road racing would blow up so many of these peoples cars. A lot of them have little tiny radiators with slim fans.
Ive gotten into a few discussions about just that. Many people dont realize just how much abuse the engine sees when youre making full boost off and on for half an hour.

i have seen this also. but i have also seen a 297hp gsr blow up. Our engines aren't that bad. we just don't push them like honda drivers do. With good tuning we could probably make about 280rwhp out of our stock 1.8 and run it for a while with no problems. The problem is longevity. That gsr i just mentioned lasted almost 2 years at that power. Once more people get in to building our vvt heads we will see some power increases. The best part is when we snap our timing belts we can slip another one on in about 3 hrs, while that Honda needs a rebuild.

Nope... 300hp on a stock B series is a joke. 400hp is easy.
I tune these things all the time. All you need is a set of 550cc Injectors and either a chipped ECU or Hondata s300. (I prefer the Hondata)

Great little street cars.. I'm in the process of gather everything to Turbo my Acura TSX. Looking for about 400hp from the K24 using quite a small turbo.
Then again it is a K series.

s300 is so nice and easy to use, but the price of s chipped ECU is one of the main reasons I love hondas so much. You basically have a standalone ECU from the factory, all it requires is soldering in a ZIF socket and a couple resistors.
Plus you can actually make a higher resolution tune with CROME/neptune/ectune than you can with hondata (although its totally unnecessary)

Interesting.

I have a 94 ls Integra which is my dd. It has about 160k on it now and still runs perfect. In the future when/if the motor goes I was planning on putting in a stock b20z just to have a reliable torquey dd. I did not realize how strong some of you guys are saying a stock b18 bottom end is, I might have to make a change in plans now.

Do you think a boosted ls is dd material? I live down a dirt road, which sucks for manifolds and hardware. Perhaps a cast manifold and safety wire would work in this instance? Bah, now I've got to do more research.

Post the question in b-series.org, trust me you spend a few hours on that forum, next thing you will be searching on CL for a project car. People say Subarus are Legos, hell no, the Lego official car is the Honda platform.

Attachment 194246

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A0kIVsqyat4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eiKlD...eature=related

The B18b is a great engines IF you dont rev the shit out of it. It wont grenade at 8k but it will wear out fast. So just keep the rev limiter at the stock 7k with a good sized turbo and it will be plenty fast and last a long time.
Theres no reason why you could daily it boosted as long as you tune it right.

I would suggest making your life easy and getting a manifold and DP from go-autoworks. it wont be as cheap as ebay stuff but it will actually FIT, lol

The cast "drag" manifold is really great, a lot of people hate on them because it cast and they want tubular but Ive seen drag manifolds make over 400hp.
You can get that manifold with a 3" stainless DP and a stainless dump tube for $550.
http://ep.yimg.com/ca/I/yhst-7680467...4_2121_5134835
http://www.go-autoworks-store.com/gocama3doco.html
or if you want to keep AC you can go with a 2.5" DP on the same combo deal for $520.
http://www.go-autoworks-store.com/gocamadoco.html

There is NOTHING easier tyo turbocharge than a honda. Its almost ridiculous how easy it is. I could take a honda from stock to boosted and running in less than 3 hours.

So what power levels will stand up to track abuse for the following unopened motors, assuming adequate cooling?
- D series
- B16 / B18
- H22

With the exception of the S2000, Honda engines power the wrong wheels. Sure they make good power and cool sounds....but it's just not nearly as fun. Reminds me of a friend I took for a ride. Mind you he has a C6 Z06 'Vette. He got out of my car just loving it. I was kinda dumbfounded because he has a damn Z06 and a nice GTO he said "but you can have fun driving this- you have to change gears, you have to drive it. In the 'vette I can just stick it in one gear and go anywhere and break all speed limits. Sure it's fast, but it's not as fun". We then proceeded to do 140mph past a cop, get pulled over and yelled at...and told to go home without a ticket.

140 past a cop means keep going 140, getting off with no ticket (or jail) is pretty damn lucky

It means that you need 3.6 gears and an 8500 redline so you can hit 170mph and then unlatch your soft top which should vault your car into space.

You should thank that cop every day for the rest of your life.
That is one nice cop

He must be a girl. Or a very sexy guy. :giggle:

we've run a crx with an ls swap for 6 years, been turbo'd for 4 and it runs great. china turbo 9psi 240whp running auto-x, trackdays, occasional drag track duty (runs 12.1 everytime) stock bottom, ported head w/springs and retainers and stock cams shifting at 8k

also ran my buddy's ls/turbo swapped eg hatch at a PCA event here. stock motor/head 15psi. we double drove it in the texas heat (near 100*) drove great the entire time, missed out on ftd only to a 911 racecar on hoosiers by 1 sec. it was a high speed course and we were topping it out on one of the straights which is about 145mph.

both cars have china chargers btw, 4-5 years old, the eg has a 1/2 width radiator but it's thick aluminum china one, the crx had a 1/2 width skinny rad., but has since been swapped to a rear mounted, full width aluminum unit that sucks in air from underneath and expels it through the hatch (through the removed vertical glass that was for rear visibility) ala 599xx.

I think a lot of the problem with miata's is that people have tried to build the engine from other engines. I know the suzuki hyabusa uses an 83mm piston. We just don't have a big enough following for people to really step out of the box. I'm actually suprised no one makes an rx7 transmission swap kit.

Its been discussed before: there isn't enough demand for them.
If there were tons of rx7 transmissions available and every other joe was swapping one in itd be a different story I'm sure.

But that's just not the case.

Also, the miata 6 speed has shown to hold up to large power and lots of abuse and is a direct bolt on, so its only makes sense to use that before an rx7 transmission.


It is a bit disappointing that the only company that makes straight cut gears for our cars is quaife and they charge out the ass.

Itd be nice to be able to have 1200-1600 "guts" that are much stronger than stock to swap in like some other markets have

I agree. Because we don't have a huge crowd like the honda B series does. we don't know what you can and can not swap in for cheap money. It would be great to know of some random car's piston and suddenly you have a 12.5:1 or 8.5:1 compression BP. We just don't have enough people to test the waters. I personally don't have the money to.

ha! somebody asks the obvious question and it suddenly got really quiet in here. i'm not calling bs or anything, but valid datapoints for reliability in track conditions seem to be few and far between.

this is a bit offtopic, but i posted the above question in my nissan forum to see what the sweet spot is for power handling on the sr20det (with head gasket as only mod). answer seems to be low to mid 300's, octane limiting, assuming pump gas. this corresponds roughly to gt30 turbo at 1bar. e85/higher octane will get you closer to 400 but my datapoints become sparse at this level.

(sr20det is 2.0 liter factory turbo motor produced for most of the 90's)

Thanks!

Maybe it's because it's a Honda question asked on a non-Honda forum, and most of us have no valid input about it?

Well there sure were a lot of posts along the lines of "my honda motor can beat up your Mazda motor"...

Luckily I was not driving.
We didn't get clocked, just hauled ass past him (didn't see him) and when we stopped at an offramp he popped us. The guy driving asked how fast we were going and all I saw the entire time was north of 130mph.

Yeah...he was VERY lucky. I was just thinking about the opportunity of getting to drive his car home when he got arrested :laugh:
The cop wasn't nice about it though, just looked at his license and threw it back at him him and said "Just because you have a fast fucking car doesn't mean you can hauls ass everywhere you go. Have a good night!!"




But on topic of this thread. I think some of the reason we see Honda doing this is because of their F1 program and their motorcycles. Mazda really did neither of those motorsports. However they did do WRC and lots of road racing where midrange power and torque were more helpful and was what worked well for them.If Mazda had the need to develop higher hp/super flowing n/a engines for something like F1, we would have eventually seen that trickle down to the end consumer.

With a good d16 such as he d16z6 you see lots of people tracking and autocrossing at ~200hp. Its very limited by the connectig rods.
The H22 doesnt get used much but from what Ive seen people get away with on stock internals for a drag car (400+hp), I would expect that you could make 300 on the track.

As far as the B series, there is a lot of difference between models. The B16A that we got here was suprsingly low compression for being a high reving NA motor, so you can throw some real boost at it. many people use them with smaller turbos like gt2560sfor track/autocross at around 250hp.
The LS (B18B) is a bit limited in how high you can rev because the rod bolts will stretch, and if you replace them the rod ratio is still crap. But the comprssion isnt very high, so reliably output s similar to the B16A.
The GSR and USDM ITR and JDM ITR (B18C1 and B18C5 and B18C) are all high compression. You usually see them being used for NA builds. I have no idea how much power they can make as a turbo track car, but Id assume within the ~250 range.

Just like with the Miatas you see people getting away with more and less.

So seeing as an unopened miata motor can be turboed to make 220~250 hp and take track abuse, it seems that with your above examples only the H22 will make a lot more.

On the track yes, I dont think the honda engines would have much of a power advantage on stock internals.
People get away with a lot on the street with big turbos and conservative tuning, but those setups couldnt survive track abuse. The rods and pistons wont take the heat.

The thing is that you can build the engine for pretty cheap and with some of the good flowing engines (B16, GSR, ITR) make a ton of power with no other modifications.

If you look at most of my posts in this thread Ive been arguing that the BP isnt really far behind the Honda engines at all. Its power band is shifted down a little bit, but it takes to boost better than most hondas. The BP is very similar to the B18B in both NA output and Turbo output.

The reason I like hondas so much is because you cn make power very cheap, much cheaprer than a miata.
Turbo manifolds, DPs, IMs, cams, rods, pistons, clutches, all much cheaper.
Not to mention the fact that the stock honda ECU is very capable. People have made 600hp on factory ECUs with a tune that was made on free software.

Any love for the F22B1, what's my daily driver capable of?

Lots. Bisimotos drag car has an insanely build F22 that makes 400hp NA! :jerkit:

Stock it has a very strong bottom end. You could easily make a reliably 300 with a well sized turbo.
Youd want to find an H22 tranny, since it has good gearing and an LSD. Its a direct swap.

HAHA watch Jay build a 900whp "daily driver" now:D

fwiw this is the same comment i heard from nissan community - standard practice is to buy some bolt-ons and get an ecu tune. this may be a factor in the size of the honda vs mazda turbo markets, actually. low barrier to entry (and a steady stream of broken parts on craigslist :giggle:)

sorry... yeah, i know, this datapoint is interesting to what, like 5 of us in US?
somebody should make a swap kit....

This.

You can tune the stock ECU using freeware if you have an Evo, Nissan, Honda, Chevy, Ford... If you have a Miata, you're either living with band-aid tuning or at least buying MS and building or buying a boomslang. I've been OCDing on my EMS and boomslang for waaay too long, but if it was as easy as tuning the stock ECU is on those other cars, it would all have been done a long time ago.

I'm glad you edited that post.

Because

I could NOT POSSIBLY DISAGREE WITH YOU MORE about the last part.

Seriously. The ammount of bullshit in that last part absolutely blew me away. Couldn't be further from the truth

Yeah, I realized as I read it that it needed to be said offline over beers, if it was said at all.

No worries:)
And I agree:D

wot!? they did https://www.miataturbo.net/showpost....73&postcount=1

EDIT: in case y'all don't have the nemesis link handy, i found it in my bookmarks: http://www.autoblog.com/2007/06/22/video-nemesiiiiis/

Regardless of how much power a honda B-series can make there're FWD sound like crap and I just don't like them. For every fast honda civic there's 60 shity looking body kit falling off loud slow pos honda's rollin around nut swing'in on the one fast honda. If I ever own a Honda it will be a 600RR or 1000RR wanna talk about good heads.

After that little rant an SR20DET, 13B, or maybe a VG30DETT swaped miata would be cool, now before you all get exited I know the SR20 has been done and so has the 13b rotary. The Nissan VG30DETT from the bloated 90 up 300zx would be pretty cool in a light weight sports car seeing as I'm sitting in my boxer's on the couch I'm not even suggesting it's even possible but 3.0L V-6 already turbo motor.

I have noticed the miata community loves to hate on it's self the BP's not a bad motor not a high rpm screamer but it does take to boost well, and the 1.8 is a really good fit to the miata's intended purpose light weight roadster with a good suspension based off the traditional British style. Really you don't start break bending rod's till your more than double stock flywheel horse power.

I wish the BP was like the SBC in my truck where I open a JEG'S catalog look a built alum cyl head for 800$ or forged short block for under 2k, but remember GM produced this motor from 55' till around the late 90's. the bottom line with horse power and the BP is if you want it you gotta spend some money no need to hate it will never be as cheap to build as SBC or honda but I'd rather have a mazda than a Honda.

I can throw around engine numbers too! A KAD24DE would be awesome because it's 4 cylinder and 2.4 litre. Or maybe even a Datsun Z22 motor from a truck, that would be great too. Now I'm sitting at my chair and not saying it is possible at all.

Seriously though, why would you even think of putting a VG from a 300zx in? It's not reliable, is a pain to work on, and doesn't make very good power.

Cool story bro.

Yeah the VG30DETT was a shot in the dark I have owned and worked on a 87' 300zx shoc non-turbo wana talk about slow and a pain to work on.

on a side note if you don't like the BP there's alot of possibilities on swaps I'll keep my BP for now.

I love my BP. 200+ hp is enough for this car.

I've never drove/rode in a track prepped Honda of any sort, whether it be forced induction or NA. The one thing I have noticed in the TONS of "street" Hondas I have drove is that, they are so damn boring to drive? Even with tons of power that they make, they just feel out of place and unwilling. Driving a turbo Miata I feel actually somewhat dared to push the car? As with a pretty powerful turbo Honda the only thing I think about is, how shitty do these coilovers ride? Or how "JDM" is this mod or this supposed to be to the fanboys? They have no personality, and after 1 WOT pull, I am once left bored again.

I drove a lot of Integras back in the day. Even the Type R always felt uninspiring behind the wheel, but you just had to respect how capable they were.

The last one I drove was an RSX with a really torquey turbo setup, making maybe 300 at the wheels, on Yoko A032Rs (tells you how long ago this was). Thing revved to 9k. Frickin' brilliant. Luvved it. Still FWD.

I would totally be putting a K series in a 2nd-gen MR2 if it fit, but the drivetrain is longer than the MR2's frame rails are wide.

The RSX community is a good source of affordable AEM EMS boxes, slightly used.

FWD Hondas can be fun to drive if they're set up right. Just as with Miatas, if the owner goes for the slammage/hellaflush look it's going to lose a lot of the fun-to-drive factor.

My favorite Honda I drove was a SM EG hatch I co-drove at an autox in Gainesville. B18C1 swap, 500# springs at all corners, big rear bar, good seat and harness, and Hoosiers. That was a blast to drive around course, just enough off-throttle oversteer to help the car rotate and plenty of power for that course, which is basically a miniature road course.

what you need to do is put a k-series in a mr-s. they're super light, mid engine, and with a k20 they are monsters on a track. i'm sure there's some on youtube.

Id rather have a miata with an F20C