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Old 09-16-2010, 07:42 PM   #1
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Default how come mazda motors dont make "good" power?

ok so im looking on some civic forums and they are making 420hp on 14psi of boost then i come over here and we have a hard time making 400hp without doing EVERYTHING to the motor.... what gives??? im thinking its to do with the head ports... i heard that they are alot smaller and lower flowing than the honda ones... so mazda motors make better power down lower but alot less in the top end where the honda ones have less "low down" torque but haul *** in the top end....

so i have been thinking a while about it and i have done some searching... i tried searching for a "racing" head for a miata, nothing :( (other than ported and polished ones and the ports look smaller than a stock b18 port ) then i search for a b18 "racing" head and the thing is also a stock one ported, but WOW!!! what a port this thing has... no wonder it can flow 400 hp no problem....

i have a few ideas but i dont know if they would wrok or not...

is there enough room in the head to port the crap out of it and not hit a water or oil port? has anyone ever tried? anyone have a 3D view of the bp head?

has anyone ever put a b18 head on a bp? has anyone even compaired the HG's or even looked if it may work?

is there any "racing" head out there for the miata? not a stock ported one... im talking a re-cast with alterd water ports to make bigger and higher flowing ports... like what the have for SBC's...

if there is no "racing" heads out there, why isnt there? maybe if we got enough people together a company would build a racing head for the bp and maybe the b6t... there is enough people with miatas out at the track every and im sure they would like to go faster...

whats your thoughts?
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Old 09-16-2010, 08:03 PM   #2
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If dreams were doughnuts, I'd need a bigger car.

There are pictures of bandsawwed bp and bp4w heads floating around on this forum. Our REAL issue is lack of a cheap transmission upgrade.
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Old 09-16-2010, 08:11 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sasquatch View Post
has anyone ever put a b18 head on a bp?
You're a ******* idiot.
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Old 09-16-2010, 08:15 PM   #4
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The Honda motors make significantly more power per liter than most other motors because they have tons of R&D into their cylinder head design. They are able to flow much more air at higher velocities, translating into more air going into and filling the cylinder during the intake stroke. That coupled with technologies like VTEC and variable cam positioning and you can have super high volumetric efficiency. So regardless of the motor is NA or FI, the motor will take in more air than other motors. The miata motor is based on 80s engine design, so it is way behind in perspective to the B-series motors and definitely way behind the K-series motors.

It has been thoroughly looked at by Emilio of 949Racing along with some people he knows at a large honda porter (Portflow I believe?). In the end it is really not doable. A large reason I believe was both water jacket holes, possibly oil return holes, and some expensive reworking of the chambers to align them with the BP cylinder spacing.
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Old 09-16-2010, 08:24 PM   #5
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1) The majority of Miatas are running smaller turbos because many of us are interested in autocross and tracking our cars, not just drag/street racing.

2) Many honda engines flow better than ours.

3) Many honda engine have more agressive stock cams than ours.

4) Most honda engines can rev higher than ours

5) Hondas are easier to tune, have HUGE aftermarket support, and have LOTS of people moddifing them.


Look at what it takes to make 400hp on an a B18b (Integra LS) and you will see its pretty similar to the BP in that it needs cams to make big power.
The B16a, B18c, B18c1, B18c5 all have agressive NA cams because they were designed to be high performance NA engines, so you throw a turbo on them and it will make all sort of power. Unfortunately those cams also make it spool slow as **** and move the powerband to the 5k+ rpm area.

If you take a good condition BP, put pistons, rods, and cams in it, with a 30r and 3" exhaust, and put 15 psi through the engine it will make just as much power as an LS with similar mods and although it wouldnt make as much power as a gSR or ITR with similar mods, it wouldnt be that far behind. Then if you started porting and ran oversized valves and whatnot, all bets are off.
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Old 09-16-2010, 08:27 PM   #6
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VTEC is for economy, that it. It does not help power in any way (although the VVT in i-VTEC does). All VTEC does is goes from a shitty cam for mileage to a good cam for power. You never use the low cam when youre racing.

Honestly the only reason they keep using the technology is because the ricers that want to "hear v-tak pop"
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Old 09-16-2010, 08:28 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hustler View Post
You're a ******* idiot.
if your just gonna say **** like this why do you even bother posting??? unless you have somthing good to say please stay out of it... it was just and idea, nothing wrong with ideas... i bet you would have said the same thing when a guy asked (will a volvo head fit on a 2.3L ford motor?) but hey look, it dose!!!
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Old 09-16-2010, 08:31 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sasquatch View Post
if your just gonna say **** like this why do you even bother posting??? unless you have somthing good to say please stay out of it... it was just and idea, nothing wrong with ideas... i bet you would have said the same thing when a guy asked (will a volvo head fit on a 2.3L ford motor?) but hey look, it dose!!!
If you had searched google for 10 minutes you would know that the cylinder spacing, cylinder bore, headstuds, water passages, oil passages, NPOTHING would line up.
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Old 09-16-2010, 08:34 PM   #9
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I put a 2JZ head on my B6 bottom end.

I just never told you guys before because I didn't want to blow your collective mind.
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Old 09-16-2010, 08:34 PM   #10
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Wait for it.........
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Old 09-16-2010, 08:34 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Full_Tilt_Boogie View Post
If you had searched google for 10 minutes you would know that the cylinder spacing, cylinder bore, headstuds, water passages, oil passages, NPOTHING would line up.
ok thanks for the info. but to make sure ill head out to the junkyard and grab 2 HG's
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Old 09-16-2010, 09:20 PM   #12
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Here's your solution: f20c swap.
Then throw on a 35r and make all the insane power you want.

I guarran-damn-tee you the amount or work/money in such swap would probably end up being easier in the long run than a b18 head retrofit or something of the sort.



That said I kinda disagree with your original statement: though the bp is not a spectacular engine by any means, it can definitey hold its own even compared to hondas.

Problem is, most people here have neither the money nor the determination to make them truly fast. They are perfectly happy with 200-250.

Those that want more, like Jay, HF, Savington, cdrtfna(sp?), and many others with "big boy setups" are easily over 400whp with room to go. And anything much higher than that requires a ton of work, EVEN with a honda platform. They don't just make 500 on stock internals.
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Old 09-16-2010, 09:34 PM   #13
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I agree with 18psi. IMHO our BP and B6 motors hold their own quite well. Especially considering they are 80s technology at best.

Almost no stock Honda motor will reliably break 400whp. Unless OP is talking about K series motors as well, which is a whole nother level.

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Old 09-16-2010, 09:37 PM   #14
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Ive seen a B16 make 500 with just pistons (stock rods, cams everything), although I wouldnt recommend it.
But that does show you how good the cams and head are, plus its ability to rev.

If there was cheap and super capable tuning capabilities for the maiata lkike there are for the older hondas, and all the inexpensive manifolds, cams, etc. You would see a lot more high power setups.

**** for a few grand you can make 400 hp on a D16 without having to fabricate a manifold or downpipe or anything


Quote:
Originally Posted by Fireindc View Post
I agree with 18psi. IMHO our BP and B6 motors hold their own quite well. Especially considering they are 80s technology at best.

Almost no stock honda motor will break 400whp. Unless OP is talking about K series motors as well, which is a whole nother level.
400 is pushing it on a stock GSR or B16, but only because of compression, Im sure its been done but it would be dangerous.
Many, many people have broken 300 on stock internals (although its still kinda stupid).


I believe CFT made like 600 on a stock F20c
edit: Nvm it wasnt CFT, it was T1 racing and it they made 700hp on stock internals! lol
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Old 09-16-2010, 09:40 PM   #15
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Yeah, i also agree parts availability greatly affects out potential. ****, just for an upgraded intake manifold were dishing out $500+.
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Old 09-16-2010, 09:53 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sasquatch View Post
if your just gonna say **** like this why do you even bother posting??? unless you have somthing good to say please stay out of it... it was just and idea, nothing wrong with ideas... i bet you would have said the same thing when a guy asked (will a volvo head fit on a 2.3L ford motor?) but hey look, it dose!!!
In for Hustler's reply.

Sasquatch, it's not that we don't like you, otherwise one of us mods would click the button that says "we dun like you" (seriously) and you'd be banned. Hustler has an interesting method of communication, and honestly, if you did a little searching you would have found the information you seek, and you could have debunked your own theories. Keep this in mind for the future. Any brilliant ideas or thoughts or theories you may think of, will either be welcomed with a good bit of bashing, or have already been thought of. Just keep that in mind.
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Old 09-16-2010, 09:55 PM   #17
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Just do a full B20B swap with v-tec head.
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Old 09-16-2010, 10:05 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sasquatch View Post
if your just gonna say **** like this why do you even bother posting??? unless you have somthing good to say please stay out of it... it was just and idea, nothing wrong with ideas... i bet you would have said the same thing when a guy asked (will a volvo head fit on a 2.3L ford motor?) but hey look, it dose!!!
1) I am the **** and get tons of bitches
2) Has anyone ever put a P51 mustang head on a Miata?
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Old 09-16-2010, 10:09 PM   #19
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I'm retrofitting my dick head on the miata for maximum flow.

**** flows 100000cfm s0
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Old 09-16-2010, 10:16 PM   #20
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All this nonsense could have easily been avoided will the search.

But, oh wait..look. I did it for you. ***.

ZING!!!!!

Here are some cool examples:

CEO's insane miata freight train of death

The Mini Monster, 10sec 1/4 stock BP

Eliminator's 50 trim baby puncher

But still, we do understand what you are trying to get at. But, we are changing this. There are alot of people on this board starting to make some really, really fast street cars. 18psi, jtothewhat, etc... nasty fast street cars.

Next year I am going for no less than 450whp and atleast a 10.5 E.T.

All it takes is know-how and alot of elbow grease.
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