how come mazda motors dont make "good" power?
 

ok so im looking on some civic forums and they are making 420hp on 14psi of boost :drool: then i come over here and we have a hard time making 400hp without doing EVERYTHING to the motor.... :facepalm: what gives??? im thinking its to do with the head ports... i heard that they are alot smaller and lower flowing than the honda ones... so mazda motors make better power down lower but alot less in the top end where the honda ones have less "low down" torque but haul ass in the top end....

so i have been thinking a while about it and i have done some searching... i tried searching for a "racing" head for a miata, nothing :( (other than ported and polished ones and the ports look smaller than a stock b18 port :bowrofl: ) then i search for a b18 "racing" head and the thing is also a stock one ported, but WOW!!! what a port this thing has... no wonder it can flow 400 hp no problem....

i have a few ideas but i dont know if they would wrok or not...

is there enough room in the head to port the crap out of it and not hit a water or oil port? has anyone ever tried? anyone have a 3D view of the bp head?

has anyone ever put a b18 head on a bp? has anyone even compaired the HG's or even looked if it may work?

is there any "racing" head out there for the miata? not a stock ported one... im talking a re-cast with alterd water ports to make bigger and higher flowing ports... like what the have for SBC's...

if there is no "racing" heads out there, why isnt there? maybe if we got enough people together a company would build a racing head for the bp and maybe the b6t... there is enough people with miatas out at the track every and im sure they would like to go faster...

whats your thoughts?

If dreams were doughnuts, I'd need a bigger car.

There are pictures of bandsawwed bp and bp4w heads floating around on this forum. Our REAL issue is lack of a cheap transmission upgrade.

The Honda motors make significantly more power per liter than most other motors because they have tons of R&D into their cylinder head design. They are able to flow much more air at higher velocities, translating into more air going into and filling the cylinder during the intake stroke. That coupled with technologies like VTEC and variable cam positioning and you can have super high volumetric efficiency. So regardless of the motor is NA or FI, the motor will take in more air than other motors. The miata motor is based on 80s engine design, so it is way behind in perspective to the B-series motors and definitely way behind the K-series motors.

It has been thoroughly looked at by Emilio of 949Racing along with some people he knows at a large honda porter (Portflow I believe?). In the end it is really not doable. A large reason I believe was both water jacket holes, possibly oil return holes, and some expensive reworking of the chambers to align them with the BP cylinder spacing.

1) The majority of Miatas are running smaller turbos because many of us are interested in autocross and tracking our cars, not just drag/street racing.

2) Many honda engines flow better than ours.

3) Many honda engine have more agressive stock cams than ours.

4) Most honda engines can rev higher than ours

5) Hondas are easier to tune, have HUGE aftermarket support, and have LOTS of people moddifing them.


Look at what it takes to make 400hp on an a B18b (Integra LS) and you will see its pretty similar to the BP in that it needs cams to make big power.
The B16a, B18c, B18c1, B18c5 all have agressive NA cams because they were designed to be high performance NA engines, so you throw a turbo on them and it will make all sort of power. Unfortunately those cams also make it spool slow as shit and move the powerband to the 5k+ rpm area.

If you take a good condition BP, put pistons, rods, and cams in it, with a 30r and 3" exhaust, and put 15 psi through the engine it will make just as much power as an LS with similar mods and although it wouldnt make as much power as a gSR or ITR with similar mods, it wouldnt be that far behind. Then if you started porting and ran oversized valves and whatnot, all bets are off.

VTEC is for economy, that it. It does not help power in any way (although the VVT in i-VTEC does). All VTEC does is goes from a shitty cam for mileage to a good cam for power. You never use the low cam when youre racing.

Honestly the only reason they keep using the technology is because the ricers that want to "hear v-tak pop"

if your just gonna say shit like this why do you even bother posting??? unless you have somthing good to say please stay out of it... it was just and idea, nothing wrong with ideas... i bet you would have said the same thing when a guy asked (will a volvo head fit on a 2.3L ford motor?) but hey look, it dose!!!

If you had searched google for 10 minutes you would know that the cylinder spacing, cylinder bore, headstuds, water passages, oil passages, NPOTHING would line up.

I put a 2JZ head on my B6 bottom end.

I just never told you guys before because I didn't want to blow your collective mind.

ok thanks for the info. but to make sure ill head out to the junkyard and grab 2 HG's :D

Wait for it......... :ohnoes:

Here's your solution: f20c swap.
Then throw on a 35r and make all the insane power you want.

I guarran-damn-tee you the amount or work/money in such swap would probably end up being easier in the long run than a b18 head retrofit or something of the sort.



That said I kinda disagree with your original statement: though the bp is not a spectacular engine by any means, it can definitey hold its own even compared to hondas.

Problem is, most people here have neither the money nor the determination to make them truly fast. They are perfectly happy with 200-250.

Those that want more, like Jay, HF, Savington, cdrtfna(sp?), and many others with "big boy setups" are easily over 400whp with room to go. And anything much higher than that requires a ton of work, EVEN with a honda platform. They don't just make 500 on stock internals.

I agree with 18psi. IMHO our BP and B6 motors hold their own quite well. Especially considering they are 80s technology at best.

Almost no stock Honda motor will reliably break 400whp. Unless OP is talking about K series motors as well, which is a whole nother level.

:ninja edited:

Ive seen a B16 make 500 with just pistons (stock rods, cams everything), although I wouldnt recommend it.
But that does show you how good the cams and head are, plus its ability to rev.

If there was cheap and super capable tuning capabilities for the maiata lkike there are for the older hondas, and all the inexpensive manifolds, cams, etc. You would see a lot more high power setups.

Shit for a few grand you can make 400 hp on a D16 without having to fabricate a manifold or downpipe or anything


400 is pushing it on a stock GSR or B16, but only because of compression, Im sure its been done but it would be dangerous.
Many, many people have broken 300 on stock internals (although its still kinda stupid).


I believe CFT made like 600 on a stock F20c
edit: Nvm it wasnt CFT, it was T1 racing and it they made 700hp on stock internals! lol

Yeah, i also agree parts availability greatly affects out potential. Shit, just for an upgraded intake manifold were dishing out $500+.

In for Hustler's reply.

Sasquatch, it's not that we don't like you, otherwise one of us mods would click the button that says "we dun like you" (seriously) and you'd be banned. Hustler has an interesting method of communication, and honestly, if you did a little searching you would have found the information you seek, and you could have debunked your own theories. Keep this in mind for the future. Any brilliant ideas or thoughts or theories you may think of, will either be welcomed with a good bit of bashing, or have already been thought of. Just keep that in mind.

Just do a full B20B swap with v-tec head.

1) I am the shit and get tons of bitches
2) Has anyone ever put a P51 mustang head on a Miata?

I'm retrofitting my dick head on the miata for maximum flow.

shit flows 100000cfm s0

All this nonsense could have easily been avoided will the search.

But, oh wait..look. I did it for you. Fag.

ZING!!!!!

Here are some cool examples:

CEO's insane miata freight train of death

The Mini Monster, 10sec 1/4 stock BP

Eliminator's 50 trim baby puncher

But still, we do understand what you are trying to get at. But, we are changing this. There are alot of people on this board starting to make some really, really fast street cars. 18psi, jtothewhat, etc... nasty fast street cars.

Next year I am going for no less than 450whp and atleast a 10.5 E.T.

All it takes is know-how and alot of elbow grease.

He speaketh the truth.
I can only imagine driving Eliminators miata:eek5:
IMO with all the writeups, testing, and knowledge we have on this site alone, a bit of research and careful planning and you could throw together a NASTY miata.

It spins the wrong way :giggle:

You mean the right way hahahahaha

To the OP, have you ever driven or rode in a 300 whp Miata?
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Or reach beyond honda and go farther ;)

Sure, the BPs just aren't great engines. The Honda B series have significantly better head design for high speed operation. However, at the risk of all sorts of fury, have you ever seen an integra with corvette LS3? There's 430hp/426tq in a 2500lb car.

^ No but i've seen a 800 hp del sol that is around 2000 pounds.


To the OP, I just think that the technology isn't there yet for us, or will ever be. Honda community has several huge shops making CAD designed intake manifolds, several companies making cams (they're like 50 choices in cams for a B-series) so much more R&D then we have...

Have you ever rode in a Miata with a LS3?

Don't forget the deep pockets.

In the end we all still own mazdas and hondas...

Has anyone pointed out that the Honda engines' (B, H, K, F) higher redline, all other factors equal, pretty much guarantees they'll make more horsepower?

I know it's far from being the only factor, but it's worth noting.

No, I wouldn't say that.

D-series have made 700 whp on pump gas and from the factory they redline at like 7000 RPM, and noted they're SOHC 1.6

It's all about engineering and R&D like I said before, the money in their market is so much higher than ours making for a lot more options and better parts.

Bisimoto is one hell of an engineer.

But yah, I said that earlier. There are lots of people making 400+ hp on dirt cheap D series builds. Cast pistons from the suzuki vitara with stock length H-beam rods creats like 7.5:1 compression ratio. Peaople are running 20-25 psi on pump gas and making 400 plus. A few drag racers have gone into the 600 hjp range with STOCK CAST PISTONS FROM A SUZUKI! lol
not to mention the fact that itrs a SOHC 1.6
Everybody thinks the D series is shitty, when in fact its really a better engine for turbo than a B imo, kinda like the BP, it needs rods and a cam to make power.

^^ Bisi tuned my first built motor and it blew up, but that's another story lol

LOL did you hear him say its stainless steel then its aluminum? Homeboy is a bit confused:giggle:

.

Don't get horny...

what the hell is the point in saying "ALL OTHER THINGS BEING EQUAL"?

They're NOT and will never be so who cares.

Its like saying, "I got a 3 inch dick and you have a 20 incher, but ALL OTHER THINGS BEING EQUAL we'd probably be the same in bed"

This is one of the worst threads I've read in my life, worse than the time I caught HIV from your mothers. With that said, nothing pisses me off more than the damn H2 and H1 cars steam-rolling me on the straights.

I'd love to see a Honda motor swapped into a Miata.

http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__...disturbing.JPG

I found your lack of reading comprehension disturbing.

open up hingtswms(sp?) thread

Nice simile.

Maybe it's because I've been up a little past 24 hours now, but to me the fact that horsepower is just torque plus math means that the higher you can rev, the more horsepower you stand to make. Simple.

https://www.miataturbo.net/build-threads-57/f20c-engine-conversion-42810/

Damn Hustler your wish is my command xoxo

Except its nowhere near that simple.

Lets say for the sake of argument that you could rev the bp to 8 or 9 grand safely. Everything else cams/intake mani/ports/etc being the same. It would get more limp than hustlers dick past 7-7.5k.

So "just" revving higher doesn't really mean much.

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I think it has a stainless DP and an aluminum exhaust pipe

Fuck, how many qualifying statements do I need to put on my posts? :jerkit:

For the sake of argument, take one B18C and stop the ramp run at 6.5k RPM. I bet you it makes less power..

Yah but the fact that the BP has weird vibration issues and starts breaking stuff at 8k rpm creates a barrier.

But yah, the idea that 'all honda engines can rev super high" is not true at all. Its funny all the people with LSs and B20s reving the shit out of them "because its a honda" even though the rod ratio sucks dick. They may not break weird shit like the BP does at high rpm, but they will sure as hell start slapping and wear out really fast.

Ive gotta say, the biggest issue with the BP has got to be the vib rational issues. Ivbe never seen an engine that will crack sch 10 tubular manifolds, or throttle shafts and weird shit like that. Its like at 7-8k it starts resonating and shit hits the fan.

ok, for the people that gave me useful info, thank you :D i think i have alot more reading and thinking to do...

wait, didn't the 1.6 motor start life as a turbo motor? if mazda didnt' change the rods when specing it for the miata i'll bet nobody would talk smack about mazda power.

in this alternate universe greddy turbo kit would be carb legal and 1 bar...

wasnt it also intended for FWD aplications as well?

Its all in the hips. Its all in the hips...

http://blogs.tampabay.com/.a/6a00d83...2b38970b-450wi

i have not seen anyone post those kind of numbers out of a stock b series motor but i have been out of that seen for like 5-6 years. It takes a ton of money to make a civic fast.

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vtech shmeetech

http://www.youtube.com/v/KDrpPqsXfVU

(stolen from ken@ncr)

You must have been out of the loop for quite some time them.

Stock B series engines breaking 300. Easily making 500+ with rods and pistons.

D16s beiong built with rods and cheap OEM Suzuki Vitara pistons are making 300+ hp. With a cam and intake manifold 500+hp.

Stock H22s pushing 400+ hp

And all the parts are at a fraction of the cost of parts for our cars. Honda prts are as cheap as parts for SBC and SBF V8s now.

/\ I just want to point out that while that statement is TRUE and there are honda engines out there like taht, there really isn't THAT many honda's out there with minimal shit done putting down that kinda power. Most that are over 300 are built. The only ones I've seen over 400 on stock internals were all k series engnies or f2x out of the s2k.

Very true most of the people here love there 250whp miatas and the best part is 250whp in a miata is where its sit in the line of fast but yet reliable and trust me once you pass 300 the car just starts to break down. Once I made 350whp with 20PSI on my EVOIII 16G my miata was breaking everything. so now its at the point where its broken more then it is on the road.

Now i got what 18psi calls a "big boy setup" and the motor and tranny to go along with it. So 400-450whp is not a problem it just coast a lot of money.

awesome vid :D thanks!!! havnt laughed that hard in a while :D