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Old 12-28-2011, 01:56 PM   #101
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Originally Posted by JasonC SBB View Post
falcon,

You are not going to gain 10% torque from diddling the exhaust or i/c. Forget it.
Next to the boost curve generated by the centri, the cams have the biggest effect on the shape of the torque curve.
Yes, in this thread we discussed him giving up on finding large quantities of low-end torque and instead trying to make the car better where it already makes power on top end. Top end is where the exhaust and intercooler being too small creates a problem. Don't you agree that at 300whp his exhaust being too small and his intercooler being, as he described it, "tiny" would possibly impede his production of even more top-end power?
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Old 12-28-2011, 01:59 PM   #102
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Yeah I'm past the point of finding more torque because it's going to be a neverending search.

Instead I figured I may as well maximize what I have with a better IC, and a 3'' exhaust.
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Old 12-28-2011, 02:55 PM   #103
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Didn't notice if I asked this but whats your valve angles in your head?
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Old 12-28-2011, 03:15 PM   #104
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Didn't notice if I asked this but whats your valve angles in your head?
It would be stock. Where are you going with this?
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Old 12-28-2011, 03:33 PM   #105
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You really don't get it, dude. His torque curve has nothing to do with the camshafts. The nature of the blower produces that torque curve regardless of the cam - I've seen motors with that blower and stock cams make the same curve.

It's clear that you and techsalvager have the same misconception about falcon's cams being so large that the motor never reaches its torque peak within the allowable RPM range, but that's just how a Rotrex works. Smaller cams may help, but we already talked about that a page or two ago, and they won't change the shape of the torque curve - if it has an effect, it will bump the midrange and decrease the top end (probably disproportionately).

I hope you've been here long enough to know that dickwaving your "experience" will not even slightly change our opinion of you.
Really! Camshaft and cylinder head will not have anything to do with torque curve?

Well hell! Never a need to do any camshaft change WHAT SO EVER. The WHOLE WORLD needs to run the SAME CAM IN EVERY CENTRIFUGAL SUPERCHARGED CAR EVER PRODUCED AND RACED IN EVERY MOTORSPORT

I admit that I say a few misguided comments on some things that I may need to learn a little more about. But that my friend is a very misguided comment on your part. And I hear you say **** like that all the time about head and cam development, but I never call you out on it.

And yes, after some have explained what a torque curve from a supercharged car looks like and why, I got it. But we still have not determined if the camshaft is in fact the cam that he thinks it is, and if the car is geared appropriately.
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Old 12-28-2011, 04:40 PM   #106
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One thing that will help for sure is finding an intercooler that has the lowest possible pressure drop. Trackdayhookey ditched his TDR intercooler for a cheap eBay unit because it had lower pressure drop (who knew) and picked up a bit of power everywhere on it. It's easy to measure.
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Old 12-28-2011, 04:55 PM   #107
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Originally Posted by miata2fast View Post
Really! Camshaft and cylinder head will not have anything to do with torque curve?
You're being sarcastic, but I'm not. It won't. You might see the curve itself go up and down, but with a centrifugal blower, you will not make significant alterations to the shape of the torque curve by changing the head or cams (within reason). Your misguided argument is that he isn't revving the car hard enough to see the torque drop, when in reality there is nothing that will produce that torque drop on a Rotrex blower (aside from an inlet restrictor or a wastegate on the charge piping).

Quote:
I admit that I say a few misguided comments on some things that I may need to learn a little more about. But that my friend is a very misguided comment on your part. And I hear you say **** like that all the time about head and cam development, but I never call you out on it.
So call me out - you might be surprised at my opinions on head/cam development. If I have a strong opinion on this site, I haven't just pulled it from my *** - I will always have a direct experience or some hard, relevant evidence to back it up.
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Old 12-28-2011, 05:41 PM   #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Savington View Post
One thing that will help for sure is finding an intercooler that has the lowest possible pressure drop. Trackdayhookey ditched his TDR intercooler for a cheap eBay unit because it had lower pressure drop (who knew) and picked up a bit of power everywhere on it. It's easy to measure.
How would i go about doing this? Just run a vaccum/boost gauge on the IC inlet and outlet and measure the difference?
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Old 12-28-2011, 05:56 PM   #109
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How would i go about doing this? Just run a vaccum/boost gauge on the IC inlet and outlet and measure the difference?
Yep. It's that easy.
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Old 12-28-2011, 06:16 PM   #110
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How would i go about doing this? Just run a vaccum/boost gauge on the IC inlet and outlet and measure the difference?
Just two little gauges, before and after.
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Old 12-28-2011, 06:32 PM   #111
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if you wanna get really technical just reroute your ms line to the two locations and log each.
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Old 12-28-2011, 07:52 PM   #112
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You mean my Haltech line . That's a good idea... easier too. I'll do that.
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Old 12-28-2011, 08:24 PM   #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Savington View Post
Yep. It's that easy.
If the pressure difference isn't too large a really simple device can work
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/u-...ter-d_611.html
It could work on Dyno and on straight road, but easiest with a leaf-blower or similar.
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Old 12-28-2011, 09:08 PM   #114
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If the pressure difference isn't too large a really simple device can work
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/u-...ter-d_611.html
Mathematics? It is good that falcon is Canadian or he might be insulted that you expected him to perform math, lol.

BTW falcon, the mountain climb clip was far more treacherous than track driving. I could understand if it was being done illegally but that it could be sanctioned by anyone is ridiculous. There are big trees and drop-offs with no run off room. Nuts.
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Old 12-28-2011, 09:13 PM   #115
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you can buy a electronic pressure diffierntial sensor for around 14 dollars off digikey

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Originally Posted by sixshooter View Post
BTW falcon, the mountain climb clip was far more treacherous than track driving. I could understand if it was being done illegally but that it could be sanctioned by anyone is ridiculous. There are big trees and drop-offs with no run off room. Nuts.
Looks fun as hell, I'd do it if they had a local event here.
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Old 12-28-2011, 10:21 PM   #116
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Mathematics? It is good that falcon is Canadian or he might be insulted that you expected him to perform math, lol.

BTW falcon, the mountain climb clip was far more treacherous than track driving. I could understand if it was being done illegally but that it could be sanctioned by anyone is ridiculous. There are big trees and drop-offs with no run off room. Nuts.
Yeah it's crazy they let cars without roll bars do it too! There was a Miata that ran with an FM built motor/turbo kit that ran without roll protection. Stupid IMO.

There are other NHA (Northwest Hillclimb ***.) events that have bigger drop offs. If you go back to the video and go under my name there is a video of Knox Mtn. Hillclimb. That's one in BC but with much stricter safety rules and fully sanctioned by the CACC. I hit way higher top speeds at Knox that Bible Creek, and I had 50whp less at Knox...
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Old 12-28-2011, 11:57 PM   #117
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Originally Posted by Savington View Post
You're being sarcastic, but I'm not. It won't. You might see the curve itself go up and down, but with a centrifugal blower, you will not make significant alterations to the shape of the torque curve by changing the head or cams (within reason). Your misguided argument is that he isn't revving the car hard enough to see the torque drop, when in reality there is nothing that will produce that torque drop on a Rotrex blower (aside from an inlet restrictor or a wastegate on the charge piping). .
How many times do I have to say, "I got it"?



Quote:
So call me out - you might be surprised at my opinions on head/cam development. If I have a strong opinion on this site, I haven't just pulled it from my *** - I will always have a direct experience or some hard, relevant evidence to back it up.
So tell me about all your highly developed camshaft and cylinder head experience.

You know what, lets forget about this stupid pissing match. You do what you do, and I do what I do. Lets leave it at that.
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Old 12-29-2011, 05:12 AM   #118
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Mathematics? It is good that falcon is Canadian or he might be insulted that you expected him to perform math, lol.
A hose with some water in it folded into a "U", run some air through the IC, use a tape measure and note down the pressure difference (the difference between the water levels in the "U"). Do the same with another IC.
The IC with the lower difference wins (assuming you can create the same airflow through the two while measuring them).

If one distance is larger than another is not that complicated math (unless you're a politician)
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Old 12-29-2011, 12:49 PM   #119
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Originally Posted by sixshooter View Post
Yes, in this thread we discussed him giving up on finding large quantities of low-end torque and instead trying to make the car better where it already makes power on top end. Top end is where the exhaust and intercooler being too small creates a problem. Don't you agree that at 300whp his exhaust being too small and his intercooler being, as he described it, "tiny" would possibly impede his production of even more top-end power?
I can tell you if he plots Torque divided by MAP.
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