Max rpm on my build? yes it's already built
 

First off I wanted to thank all the people on this forum for supplying me with information and i was not a part of the community much. Now i am lol.


Sorry i hope this is not a dumb question as i am actually very new to this forum.

current mods just to motor and drive train
I just wanted an idea of what my rpm limit should be around....

Rebello built 1.65L b6
supertech +0.5mm 8.8:1 pistons
manly rods
ACL ceramic coated race bearings
port and polish
oversize supertech exhaust valves +1mm
vs-855 valve springs
kia lifters lol
1.8 valve train parts for sustained high rpm
Adaptronic ECU
ARP Everything,, yes the flywheel bolts too.
fadanza 7 ish lbs flywheel
2.5 separated Downpipe
3 inch cat back silverline

2000nb 6 speed
1.8 lsd

i think that's it



Soon to be changed
Greddy turbo kit with td04h
begi downpipe stainless

changed to a
begi s4 manifold
with s15 spec r t28r
custom Rebello downpipe.

7000rpm

I'd run 8,000 on that assuming "vs-855" valvesprings don't float at 8,000. I'm not familiar with those valve springs.

Also assuming the oil pump doesn't grenade.

I was under the impression that the vs-855 springs that have a 66lb resting rate had a much higher rpm capability vs the 46lb stock... closer to 9k is what some other have done.
Im guessing the 7000 rpm was much sarcasm because stock is 7200 rpm.
im going to look up the max rpm of the oil pump as i did not think of that.
i dont want to be accused of not using search function

btw motor was balanced also

Then set it at 7200.
OEM oil pump is built for OEM RPMs.

What did the folks at Rebello say?

Those valve springs should be fine then. 7,000 wasn't sarcasm, lots of folks think the stock oil pump gears will break above the stock 6,900 RPM redline. I've rev'd BP's to 8,000, 8,500, 8,800, and never failed as stock oil pump. That's my experience. Apparently I'm really "lucky".

But on the forums it's common. Do a search and you'll find 1,000 post talking about upgrading oil pump gears, and how the stock gears are a known weak link. Cheap insurance, etc. Maybe find 3 people that actually broke them. Maybe. Anyways look into it and draw your own conclusions.

I also ran the stock throttle body and never had a throttle body screw failure. That probably was luck, because that failure is wayyyyy more common than broken oil pump gears. (you can probably find 20x more evidence of failed throttle body screws vs oil pump gears, for example) There's people racing miatas that are naturally aspirated that have had that failure. That one actually does happen, so if you rev to the moon consider a different throttle body.

Oil pump and damper are normally considered "necessary" for "to the moon" rev limits. Pat may have gotten away with it. But people have also gotten away with running 300+ on a stock motor. Or 300 through a 5 speed. But I blew my 5 speed at 220hp, and others vented their blocks much earlier.

Rebello said that 8k would be no issue with with springs that I had. mention of the oil pump was never made. apparently they have never seen a broken one and have been building miatas for quite some time spec miata, turbos and such. Brian who works there "owners son" who is after all the time i have talked with and knew before this build is kind of a friend now , had a 375 hp 1.6 and used the stock pump..
If the oil pump breaks at RPMs he sets me up for i know he would feel bad esp since i have known him for a fair amount of time and live about 15 miles away from their shop.

apparently most people who are breaking them don't have a fully built and balanced motor. i could be wrong here too but that makes a huge difference in hard metal life.

I honestly i really appreciate all the time you have spent with me already.
sorry for the block of text

like the fact that your car probably saw like 5 minutes of total "track" time in 13 second intervals at a time?

lol

How does you breaking a 5 speed at 220hp have anything to do with oil pump gear failures? Or other people failing stock rods? That has nothing to do with oil pump gear failures. I too have broken a 5 speed and stock rods, so what?

If anyone wants to make a point for using a better oil pump, post oil pump pressure data on your motor before/after the pump, or post pics of your broken oil pump and what conditions you were operating at when it failed. This forum is pretty good about no BS, data/fact/actual experience, but for some reason that doesn't apply to oil pumps? That's what's sad about oil pump gear failures, there is almost No evidence of it, so people make analogies (this broke at... that broke at...) excuses (cheap insurance, while you're in there, why not).

If they told you 8, I'd run it to 8.

Several years ago I spent a few hours looking for ANYONE that actually broke an oil pump gear. I found 3 who had pictures of the failure, and two of them were not using a harmonic damper at all (were instead using an aluminum pulley that replaced the stock harmonic damper as it saved weight) and one was using a damper, but had previously run the mentioned aluminum pulley that replaced his damper but switched back before his oil pump failed. If oil pump failures are common, I'm sure a quick search will turn up several people who have had such failures.

Point is that not every situation is the same. Some things work for some people others don't.

Its very simple.

Perfect example of oil pump gear failure evidence. Someone on the internet tells me how long my car has been on a track.

So instead of trying to help in any way you decide to smash another member?
oh nice moderator.:cry:

so instead of asking the people that built your engine what it's capable of revving to, you post up a dumb question online for people that have no idea what you have, to answer for you?

but you paid big money for a 1.6, so.....

..makes sense

I don't see cams on that list. There's no point in going over 7000rpm with the stock 1.6L cams.

I agree with that extremely generalized statement. It is very simple.

That says nothing for why oil pump gears fail, or that yours failed under what conditions, or what improvement you have measured with a different oil pump. This forum is supposed to be no BS, actual data, actual experience, not hearsay.

That's Vlad, he does that. Better me than you, I can take it. :giggle: I'm need to bounce some E85 questions of V soon actually, better not piss him off too much.

lol you know I'll help regardless :)

The ones I've personally seen, we revved to 7 grand just like stock, and after the car got to 240whp they just exploded. No signs or clues that they'll go

so after that I hopped on the "bandwagon"

this was a spirited driven street car too. I dunno

I know, you're the most helpful asshole I know. :fawk:

This is why my revlimit is 7000. No need to risk it. If I were racing and rebuilding my motor once a week things would change.

I'm on the bandwagon of "i want my motor to live > laptimes" you may be on a different bandwagon.

I stop making power after around 7350rpm. And my engine is built for over 8k rpms.
So it's useless except for rev matching and decelerating.

Or skipping a gear change on the track.

Oh I've money shifted back into 2nd twice now. I'm positive it spun way past 9000 when I did it.
Nothing broke yet.

ok mister 18psi ,.
i have my reasons for using a 1.6. i don't care if you like them.
1. California
2. 1.6 weigh less not much but they do. so the weight is further back.
3. i don't like running a oil feed line from the other side of the world
4. same motor the car came with. kinda nice.
5. easily within my power goals


cams not on the list for a reason at the time of engine build. ran out of money
we decided it was the easy thing to change later. will change them with the new turbo setup

Reasons are silly :)

your just sad someone likes the 1.6 better. and that you still have a td04

i have a extra t28r ball if you want

I have a 1.6. I don't like it. The lack of torque is quite annoying. And I put the TD04 on recently. I kind of like it. It cost $50 bucks and should be good for a bit more power when I build the VVT motor I have.

If I build another DIY system i will use a TD04 again. Fantastic cheap turbo.

you do know the difference is only about 10% hp and torque?
and almost no one can really tell. the difference is actually not much. after a build and the turbo yes . but with the 6 speed it really becomes negligible

I've ridden in both. 1.8's have quite a significant increase in torque, and seat of the pants feeling. They spool a good couple hundred RPM's sooner. Add VVT and you have another 500rpm of spool.

I have a 6 speed. I don't see your point.

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1444346505

I see a 50ft/lb difference until the boost difference comes in and power goes up.

You must be pretty damn un-observant to not notice 50ft/lbs.

ah you are silly i said 10% referring to stock...
but after turbo and build i agree

Where the fuck in this thread have we discussed stock engines?

i just............



:eggplant::eggplant::eggplant:

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1444347230

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1444347230

can we not fight over STUPID STUFF please....
it really doesn't matter that much .
you are right about the 1.8 being better power wise.
spool because of more displacement ..

sure. stop posting stupid stuff :)

I mean you're on stock pump and stock cams. What is there to discuss?

i kept the motor because my now passed away girlfriend of 5 years helped me pay for the car and some of the motor parts ... I don't have a better reason. and i don't think any of you do... so this is my forever car/motor.
i came here for multiple opinions. not to be judged because of motor size all 150 cc of it

The judgement is free, on the house.

So moving on, what about that second part? No cams = no moar topend, no pump = russian roulette with the stock opg.

Only the porter/polisher can tell you how much the head will flow, cause the stock 1.6 head is a piece of trash. And then the stock IM will choke you. And then the 2.5 dp. adn the list goes on

Car looks nice! I gotta get around to getting my 99 repainted...

well its not stock.. :)
the intake mani is very clean inside unlike most there was nothing to smooth out in it. A custom or begi intake manifold is on my list of to do's.

atleast i dont have a cheap suspension,,
i have ohlins dfv
fm sways and improved racing links
garagestar fender braces
fm butterfly
cannon rear
... i found a 1.6 head in the trash once,,,, jk jk


thanks it is original paint lucky me.

I'm sure your car is nice.
But we'll always give you crap about the 1.6
So just roll with it.

And again, without flow numbers, you still don't know if the head will flow up top.

Or you can just remove the rev limit, put car on dyno, and..............see for yourself where it noses over?

For what it's worth.. My street engine is fully balanced, ETD rods and It occasionally sees 8k shifts, and has the cams/valvetrain to spin that high. No OP failures in 9 years and almost 30k miles

Occasionally means at least 3-4 times every time I drive it

thanks stealth....
and who drives alot under 4k??? i was looking at that dyno confused??

i cant wait to get the car dyno tuned . build has only 2k miles on it ..
ill post them up for sure. hopefully it is better than you expect 18psi..
dont expect much lol.
in your sub is that your gunmetal nb if so i like it is clean..

and i will be going e85 soon too

Well I do, but I have a 1.9L VVT on E85 with a Whipple, so low end torque? Yeah, got that by the bucket full.

Start data logging and on the street you may be surprised

very true ... but i meant in a very hard manner

thanks
you'll love e85.
I'm sure your car will make plenty of power, even without overspinning the engine

Harmonic balancer? Street or autox/track car?


Given the information, stock redline seems ideal. The cams don't really make any power above that anyways.

Wait... California is a reason to not swap to a 1.8, but it's not a reason to not build a 1.6 and stick a non-carb-legal turbo kit on it?

If you're inclined to revert to stock every two years for the smog testing, then it's a lot easier to pull out a turbo that than swap the motor every time. OTOH, most smog techs aren't going to notice the difference between a 1.6 and a 1.8 visually.

--Ian

this. no one notices my vvt motor and lack of pre-cat (when the oem heatshield is on the 01 header) on my 99.

Shit... last time I went to a smog shop the guy stood there with the clip board... long pause. Make? mazda... another long pause... Model? miata?!?. He walks away and proceeds to come back with a timing light to check timing. smh

op rev to stock redline. enjoy the noise and be happy. a few hundred rpm more isn't going to net you much and will risk opg, won't make power because of cams and if tracking, will risk eating throttle body screws. :dealwithit:

7000 rpm. 6000 rpm with the turbo. I found out the hard way that high rpm and boost and stock oil pump don't mix. My setup was completely bulletproof for years and years at 18 psi shifting around 6000-6500 rpm. Fixed my high rpm boost control problems and started making power up to 7500 rpms and boom oil pump didn't last a year of street driving. Was awesome while it lasted though.

If you change the oil pump and harmonic balancer, that combo is probably good for 8000 rev limit, but pointless because stock cams will murder your power above 6000 rpm. Unlike the 1.8L engines, you can't swap in a 99 head and flat top to fix this.

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1445540954

Here is what happens to a oil pump when you detonate the engine at high boost levels. Run this 1.6L to 7900 only have this problem when tune up is not right.

I had a long talk with my engine builder. He Said " the only time I have seen an oil pump go out was when the driver flogged it before the engine and oil were up to temp." on a parade lap or other reasons.
he went on to say they have many spec miata engines , ep class cars and GT class engines that have stock oil pumps and no problems at very high rpms. . banging the rev limiter hard through turns

aside from that the early 1.6 was basicly a 323 turbo engine short nose crank like mine. with a different oil pump from my reasearch.
so yes you can break it .... i saw a 350z motor have a blown head gasket at 35k because the owner drove it hard on a cold motor...

i have a cold rev limiter at 4000 rpm so i can't push it till my temps are up.

just want to throw this out there... spec miata's have bone stock redlines and ep motors likely don't last long enough (10-20 hour rebuild cycles for competitive ones) for opg's to matter. shit... ep motors are just grenades in general.

Yeah, saying we can do higher than stock redlines or that we can sustain stock redline for cumulatively long periods of time on stock gears because spec miata does it discounts the fact that spec miata runs very light weight oils for reduced drag and constantly rebuild their engines including replacing oil pumps.