My NA 1.8 NA made 110/102. Input?
 

Logs and tune will come later, I'm at work and mulling over my dyno visit yesterday...

First off, here's my current mod list:

SM 1.8 block (presumed balanced)
99 head
99 intake manifold
Ex-Intake mod
Shaving Seconds custom-built header with matched primaries
Shaving Seconds custom-built 2.5" exhaust to twinloop eBay muffler
AriBuilt intake and cold air box (filter behind driver's headlight)
Toyota COP conversion

the car IS tuned. I started off on 99mx5's old NA (he's EFR'd now) fuel and ignition maps that he'd already spent some time tweaking, as his old NA setup is similar to mine. We probably have an additional (combined) 3 hours or so fine-tuning my VE table, both cruising around town and making adjustments while at the track. The plot you see below is of my CURRENT tune, which isn't "finalized" but up until yesterday we both thought was pretty solid. I know my VE could use some small tweaks and I'm pretty sure he flashed it before we loaded the car back on the trailer after seeing the plot freak out from 6k on. I'd venture to guess (read:hope) that the secret to my low hp is in the spark tables but we won't know until they get posted later tonight.

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1404927281

I made 110/102, which isn't really not really what I was expecting based off of the "Super Miata 140whp mod path"...

99-05 cylinder head or complete engine. 100% stock (Mine has a "better" intake cam)
Generic exhaust header. Racing Beat is recommended (check)
Generic high flow exhaust and cat delete. Racing Beat, Borla XR-1 and Flowmaster are good options (check)
DIY or aftermarket intake pipe and cone filter (check)
Programmable engine management computer (ECU) and a good tune (check)
91 octane pump gas (check)

Here's the Super Miata Dynojet sheet you've all seen:

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1404927281

Obviously there's a lot of variables in dyinoing vehicles and I get that... It's probably worth mentioning that It was 95-100* ambient, they only had 1 fan airflow and we left the lid on the air box for both pulls but even still, I don't think I'm crazy when I say that I should be putting down just as much as your basic Super Miata though...

9mx5 logged both pulls, my AFRs were on point but I do think there's more exploring to me done with my current setup but fuck, could there be ~20whp hidden in there?



-Concerned member

Your cr is 9.1, isn't emilio's car higher than that?

Otherwise lets see that tune. Its not bad but I agree that you should be making a bit more.

Afr's looked good, although I think there's a bit more power with mid to low 12s. Looks like you're at a solid 13?

What kind of timing table did you end up with? How much did you adjust timing by, and what was the before/after result?

I thought I was 9.5:1? Should be an NA 1.8 block with the block and head being within factory specs - not milled all crazy or anything.

You aren't seeing my AFRs, they don't show on my chart?

I'll see if Ari can upload my logs and my tune after lunch.

:party:

9.1 is na 1.8
9.5 is 99-00
10 is 01+

I do see your AFRs, and the dotted line appears to be a straight shot at 13.0:1 AFRs. Your run stays easily above that until 6750rpm, when you're finally right at 13.0:1.

If it were me, and I were someone that's dyno'd a 125hp stock 1.6 with MS, I'd keep your sub 4-4500rpm fuel map, but richen 4-4500 to 6000rpm to around 12.5, and 6000-red line to around 12.

I'll ask again, what'd you change with your timing, and what were the before/after results? A log won't tell me this, unless it includes both runs.

Frick.

For sure shaving this head as close to 12:1 as I can when it comes off next.

What?

Are you saying shaving a head will change your afrs? It won't.

Are you saying shaving a head will get you close to 12:1 CR? It won't.

What?

No, I'm not saying shaving my head will change AFRs, where the fuck did you get that from??

Yes, I'm saying I'll shave the head to get AS CLOSE TO 12:1 as possible, meaning shave as much as is safe off of the head (.080" I believe)

I did no get tuned on the dyno, never stated nor implied that. I simply strapped down and did two pulls yesterday for classing purposes.

And I'm sorry, where on my dyno image are you seeing my AFRs?

sounds like you need 10.5+ in your life

I feel like Curly might be under the impression that the Super Miata dyno is my second pull?

In a very real, very bad way. I'm realistically planning an 01 block, shaved 99 head, AE101 ITBs and E85 next year but that doesn't mean that my current results don't irk me a bit.

Compression/leakdown test? Start with the basics.

yeah, seems like he doesn't get it.

:fawk:

I think its worthwhile to bold this part as another really big reason you're low on power
If you're untuned, you can't even compare plots with the supermiata plot until you are

Well if you didn't do any tuning, it mean you're on the super conservative base spark map, and that's where you'll make power. If your timing was set right, I'd expect 10-15hp from proper spark timing and a little extra fuel.

And no, I realize Emilio is the one with 137hp, not you.

Holy shit, I honestly didn't think I needed to be so specific and I do apologize. I'll edit the first post, my bad guys.

I know y'all are just trying to help.

Edited first post to hopefully be more helpful.

Sorry again.

So then where are you seeing my AFRs if they aren't on my dyno plot?


:hs:

So essentially your spark map is completely untuned, as in it hasn't been personally optimized for your actual car on a dyno.

Timing is everything on these motors, until you've tuned that on a dyno I'd call it 'untuned'. Was 99mx5's spark table ever tuned on a dyno? Spent time tweaking != spent time tuning.

Yes, his spark map was tuned for his motor, it is not a base map by any means but it HAS NOT been adjusted for mine.

:facepalm:

the more details you finally disclose to us the worse you're making yourself look.

if it wasn't optimized for YOUR car, its not anything more than a base map. in fact, often times it can be worse than a base map. all the cons without the pros.

This is why tuning is important. This is why people pay big money for tuning. Because its optimized for a specific engine and setup.

Most people that post the "oh well it worked on a similar setup, therefore it should....." get ignored or dismissed here cause they're just too stupid to help.

You're actually getting treated nicely here believe it or not.

If you read through Emilio's thread about his CNC heads, he talks about how different the castings are from head to head. No 2 are exactly the same, therefore a tune on 1 will not perfectly translate to another.

First off, I'm not worried about how I'm getting treated... I know most of you on here truly know your shit and I appreciate the help either way, that's why the word "input" is in the thread title.

Secondly, neither myself or Ari are "tuners" and unfortunately there aren't any reputable ones local to me otherwise I'd have already given them my money. Ari's old NA setup on his 99 was I/H/E/COPs, my setup it I/H/E/COPs. I understand that there are variables (CR being one, thanks for that) but between a legit basemap (stock) and Ari's, we went with his.

Obviously I know the car needs to be tuned (tuned-tuned) but as I said, short of a 6hr round trip to Tuscon, that's not going to happen (for THIS setup.) Ari and I will continue to DIY but this thread has at least opened my eyes to the fact that the spark table could be the source of my frustration and it for sure needs to be addressed and ultimately, that's what this thread was all about - asking people who know more than I do for advice.

I appreciate it.

I see my problem. I was looking at your dyno, but when looking at the AFRs, I was only scrolling up far enough to see them, not far enough to see the "supermiata" logo. Whoops.

But our point about spark tuning stands. Any change, from the amount of stretch in your timing belt, to how much carbon is built up on your pistons, will require a much different tune from a ignition stand point.

You don't need to be expert tuners, lord knows I don't.

1. Schedule an hour at your local dyno (this one wasn't the one 6 hours away, was it?!).
2. Do a base pull
3. Select the top two rows of your timing map, from about 4000rpm on. Subtract 3 degrees in all cells
4. Do another pull
5a. If your power remains roughly the same, within 1-2hp, you know you were beyond MBT, and you should continue pulling 1-2 degrees of timing until you see a significant drop, raise it up a degree or two, and then find your reason for low power.
5b. Hopefully though, you will see a drop in power. That is good, you aren't above MBT! Raise those two rows of cells 5 degrees, aka: 2 degrees above where you started.
6. do a pull
7. Repeat these steps until power begins to level out, if you see less than 1hp change between runs with 1-2 degrees timing change, you've gone far enough and you're only risking your motor for minimal gains.
8. Win at life.

This all assumes you don't have a knock sensor. If you do, keep going up until knock is detected, then back off.

I see the light with the spark map for sure.

I was admittedly naive and figured that his would be "close enough" to use, given the similarity of our setups but I DID KNOW that eventually a full retune did need to happen. I had no idea that much power could be lost in an unoptimized spark table though so I think it's for sure worth booking this dyno for an hour or so and knocking it out.

Thanks guys.

Are you controlling VICS or is the IM gutted?

Post your spark map so we know for certain what NOT to do.

Still worth looking at the basic health of the engine (compression test/leakdown).

SAE correct your results. Based upon 100°F (or whatever your IAT actually was -- did you look?) plus the high altitude in Las Cruces, my guess is that you might actually be matching Emilio. Seriously. Your density altitude might be something ridiculous like 10,000'. If so, you're at about 65% of SL power.

If you're going to operate a car in the mountains, you need boost, always! (playing off your sig here, LOL).

OK, curiosity got the best of me.

Elevation of Las Cruces airport (KLRU) is 4,456.9'.

With an OAT of 100°F and assuming standard atmosphere pressure, your density altitude is about 8,200'. My rule of thumb as a pilot is that I would expect a normally aspirated piston engine to make about 75% of rated power at this altitude. So . . . 110HP/0.75 = 147HP!!! You're doing darn well my friend.

Post your spark map so we know WHAT to do! LOL.

VICs is not controlled nor gutted. Never got around to it and completely spaced on that, thank you for asking!!

I'll check the motor but I feel that the spark tables will be the key here and they'll be posted this evening. All of this is on Ari's laptop.

The 110/102 is corrected, uncorrected I did 94/88. :laugh:

I wish I would have taken photos of the dyno/locale, You'd then understand when I say I'm not sure I 100% trust the unit nor the operators but I'll continue to use this one since I've already "baselined" there and at least that can remain my constant. Plus, I could probably pay them with weed and Monster energy drinks.

No boost here, my next setup will be higher compression with ITBs and corn fuel and THAT's the motor I have every intention of getting to AZ since I'll know even less (lol) about ITB tuning nuances than I do my current setup.

Are you sure you did the SAE correction correctly? I get a lot more than 110 from 94 uncorrected based upon the elevation/temperature numbers you're reporting.

If you have doubts about the dyno, you might want to find a straight, flat road and confirm with a VD pull.

They did the correction with the software but, again, I put little faith in their competence.

I just checked weather.com and yesterday in El Paso at 3pm it says it was 95* and a quick Google shows EP at 3740' above sea level.

lol, just saw this. Added some info about temps and location.

The VICs is a pretty big help, isn't it? According to FM's dyno on their '99, it's worth 5ft/lbs. Not bad for an RPM switch and actuator. Not sure if your MS can control that or not.

It can and it will, just spaced on that entirely. :hs:

VICS would mostly help below 5200RPM though. Above that, OEM VICS is deenergized so it shouldn't matter. This is assuming your VICS butterflies are actually closed in the standard deenergized position and aren't stuck in some half-cocked position.

The main difference I see in the torque curves is that Emilio's takes off right around 3400RPM whereas yours stays remarkably flat. Hey, at least you have a flat torque curve, right? Suspect the difference in torque curve shape is related to spark advance.

If you refine the SAE correction (note that you want to try to capture the temperature of the air that the engine is actually breathing -- without good fans at the dyno this might be quite a bit higher than outside ambient) and work on the spark table, I think you'll end up pretty close to Emilio.

Datalogs
 

Here are the logs from both pulls.

Wide open throttle AFR is dipping into the high 10's and you are using a map designed for another car. On top of your coolant temps being in the 120's each pull. Get the car properly tuned and it'll make some better power. It looks like you are running around 32 degrees of advance up top already, this tune could use some serious work.

it took a LOT of effort to unstick the ones on the last car I was tuning.

BUT

you can tell it's locked in the high position because there's no bump at 3.5K and the RPMS don't plummet at 6K.

gains will be had between 3.5K and 5.5K once you activate it...Incredibly silly not to activate an actuator and leave 5-10rwtq off the table in that rpm-band.

what I DO suggest however, is actually waiting until your motor is warm, correctly tuning your warmup, ait, and barometric corrections and not inject an extra 22% of fuel during a dyno pull.

Ugh, more info I left out.

Currently, my factory coolant temp sensor IS NOT FUNCTIONING. I use an aftermarket gauge with a sensor in the upper rad hose and the factory sensor is zip tied to the firewall.

Coolant temps for these pulls were in the 200-210* range

And this coolant sensor is connected to the MS, how?

:party:

I was once told that it wasn't necessary to have it operational. Context clues tell me this is not the case and having my MS see a proper, TRUE coolant temp is now on my list of "important shit I need to take care of so that my car doesn't suck."

AIT maybe, which doesn't change fuel by a huge amount and most sane temperatures, as long as you tune for it's default -40 reading

Coolant though, has a lot to do with warm up enrichments (were they ever off?) and there's a whole coolant related fuel page to tune.

Coolant sensor is definitely needed by the MS to provide the correct amount of fuel. I would get that sensor fixed and hooked up ASAP.

I ordered a new temp sensor a while back when a got a wild hair to "tidy up" all my lose ends but once I remembered that the one I had was just zip-tied in the bay because there was no available bung for it it got put on the "next motor" list along with a reroute.

I'll order the reroute shit today. :hs:

:facepalm:

then what I suggest is actually calibrating your CLT sensor so the MS *thinks* your motor is warm so it doesn't inject an extra 22% of fuel during a dyno pull.

I also suggest your fix your AIT and BRO corrections that just so happen to be cancelling each other out. your AIT is pegged at -7% fuel and your BARO is pegged at +7% fuel.

Yukon hose and Kia neck ordered, I'm gonna fix it. :hs:

Trying to read up on AIT and BRO.

Bro.

These "rest of the story" threads crack me up.

Hey, I don't know shit about this stuff. I've read here and there but most of it is over my head.

Either way, I'm happy to entertain. :party:

Well it's not that entertaining, you aren't even fighting with us and telling us that we don't know shit and that your tooner is the best in the world and that we should stop being pussies and race you.

oh and btw, im gay, if that matters ;)

Well then fuck you.

Eat a dick, queer.

For serious:

Yukon hose just showed up, I'll have the Sephia neck on Tues. Still need to figure out sensor mounting as I'm way too cheap (poor) to order up a nice Begi unit. :(

Copied Brain's MAT correction table here (Man I hope that's what you were referring to) but haven't burned yet, don't have the car with me.

Don't order a BEGi unit, you'll regret that decision if you want to change your thermostat out. Save up and buy the M tuned neck and remote thermostat.

That MAT table should help, but between correcting that and the warm up with a new water temp sensor, expect to completely retune your VE map or ad a lot of fuel.

That's not a big deal, we've decided that (obviously) this setup and tune need a lot of work. I was going to put some of it off for the new setup next year (reroute) but clearly I need to take a step back and asses my current setup and tune before even considering changing everything up again.

Spoke with the dyno operator yesterday; $150/hr to rent it out... Gonna have to take him up on that for sure once all this shit is ironed out.

that's a bit pricey for a dynojet.

Kind of sort of off topic but after looking at that first log it looks like your AE is off. When you blipped the throttle on the first log. it goes lean at about 24% TP probably has nothing to do with your power band but Id look into it.