Oil Pumps - Miata Turbo Forum - Boost cars, acquire cats.

Welcome to Miataturbo.net   Members
 


Engine Performance This section is for discussion on all engine building related questions.
Sponsored by:
Sponsored by:

Reply
 
 
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 11-09-2008, 10:46 PM   #1
Elite Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (12)
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 1,923
Total Cats: 0
Default Oil Pumps

Until recently, most of us thought that the oil pumps were all the same between the years. As it was found out in the billet oil pump gear group buy there was a change made in 2001 with the vvt engines using a different pump. Any thoughts on why Mazda did this? Any idea if using the older style pump in a vvt car could cause any problems?
JayL is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-10-2008, 02:22 AM   #2
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Portsmouth, VA
Posts: 115
Total Cats: 0
Default

there still seems to be so much unknown about these cars for the amount of time they have been out.

I've been trying to research some questions i have for my high compression N/A build. I assume the motor were putting together will see rev's to 8k, so i want to go with the best option on pumps, and if its not available go with a different lower RPM cam spec.

What i want to know is since the '03 cars pumps are different, is it for more volume? pressure? Will a 03 pump work on a 95 block?

I come from the honda world, where pretty much all this information is so easy to come by. However much of the miata information is much unknown.
JETSWU87 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-10-2008, 03:16 PM   #3
Boost Pope
iTrader: (8)
 
Joe Perez's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Delicious and Moist.
Posts: 26,328
Total Cats: 1,926
Default

Hmm. This thread's only a month old, so I guess the Necromancer stays in the deck.

As JayL points out, the change occurred at the same time that Mazda installed a variable cam-timing system on the intake. This system operated by causing a movement of the intake cam gear relative to the cam itself, and like the Honda system, it uses oil pressure to achieve this motion.

Unlike VTEC, however, VVT is an infinitely variable mechanism. Rather then simply being ON or OFF, the cam timing varies across a range of movement. The absolute position of the cam is determined by reading the offset between the cam and crank sensors, and the duty cycle of the oil control solenoid is adjusted to achieve the desired cam angle. It is a closed-loop system.

Mazda has not given us a specific justification for the change in any of the known literature, so we can only assume that because of the sensative nature of the VVT system it was necessary to attain more precise regulation of the oil pressure in the engine, and / or that because of the oil flowing through the VVT mechanism, it was necessary to increase the volume of the pump.

On the other hand, it might simply be a coincidence. Many mechanical have been made to the car over the years which did not necessarily have an interactive relationship with any other function.
Joe Perez is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-10-2008, 03:37 PM   #4
Elite Member
iTrader: (33)
 
RotorNutFD3S's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Newnan, GA
Posts: 2,539
Total Cats: 29
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Perez View Post
Hmm. This thread's only a month old, so I guess the Necromancer stays in the deck.
lol I have the card as well, but figured since it's his only post on the site and the thread is a month old that he actually used the search button.
RotorNutFD3S is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-10-2008, 06:37 PM   #5
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Portsmouth, VA
Posts: 115
Total Cats: 0
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Perez View Post
Hmm. This thread's only a month old, so I guess the Necromancer stays in the deck.

As JayL points out, the change occurred at the same time that Mazda installed a variable cam-timing system on the intake. This system operated by causing a movement of the intake cam gear relative to the cam itself, and like the Honda system, it uses oil pressure to achieve this motion.

Unlike VTEC, however, VVT is an infinitely variable mechanism. Rather then simply being ON or OFF, the cam timing varies across a range of movement. The absolute position of the cam is determined by reading the offset between the cam and crank sensors, and the duty cycle of the oil control solenoid is adjusted to achieve the desired cam angle. It is a closed-loop system.

Mazda has not given us a specific justification for the change in any of the known literature, so we can only assume that because of the sensative nature of the VVT system it was necessary to attain more precise regulation of the oil pressure in the engine, and / or that because of the oil flowing through the VVT mechanism, it was necessary to increase the volume of the pump.

On the other hand, it might simply be a coincidence. Many mechanical have been made to the car over the years which did not necessarily have an interactive relationship with any other function.

I appreciate you taking the time to respond. So now my understanding of the system is that there is actually a valve/solenoid that controls oil flow on the VVT motors. My question is though, is that valve on the pump it self? If its not, is the pump from the VVT motor able to produce more pressure/volume then the pumps in previous years? Do you think that pump would be able to hand high revs for extended periods better then the old pump?

As were aware there isnt many options for pumps, i did however find this. Dont mind the simple looking website, from my research these guys have been around a very long time. I need to call and see what makes the pump special, after all its $288.
OIL PUMPS & ENGINE BEARINGS

Quote:
Originally Posted by RotorNutFD3S View Post
lol I have the card as well, but figured since it's his only post on the site and the thread is a month old that he actually used the search button.
I'm not a forum noob, just new to this forum. haha Ive been a member here for a while, just always found what i was looking for without needing to post.
JETSWU87 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-10-2008, 07:01 PM   #6
Boost Pope
iTrader: (8)
 
Joe Perez's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Delicious and Moist.
Posts: 26,328
Total Cats: 1,926
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JETSWU87 View Post
So now my understanding of the system is that there is actually a valve/solenoid that controls oil flow on the VVT motors. My question is though, is that valve on the pump it self?
It is located on the top of the valve cover, on the intake side. I have circled it in the image below:




Quote:
If its not, is the pump from the VVT motor able to produce more pressure/volume then the pumps in previous years? Do you think that pump would be able to hand high revs for extended periods better then the old pump?
It has been determined by those involved in the recent group buy that the gears in the VVT pump are slightly thicker. Thus, we can infer that this pump was designed to flow a higher volume of oil (presumably to satisfy the demand of the VVT system) which might tend to produce slightly higher oil pressure at low RPM when hot, but would otherwise be regulated to the same maximum pressure as the other pumps.


Quote:
As were aware there isnt many options for pumps, i did however find this. Dont mind the simple looking website, from my research these guys have been around a very long time. I need to call and see what makes the pump special, after all its $288.
It's not necessarily relevant to the specific vendor you've found, but a while back, Flyin' Miata compared a stock oil pump to one that was billed as being "high performance" and judged the two to be essentially identical insofar as they were able to determine: Flyin' Miata : Technical information : High volume oil pump

Miatas do not typically suffer from inadequate oil supply insofar as the design of the pump is concerned. If your oil pressure is too low, then either the pressure relief valve is sticking, your oil filter is clogged (or made by Fram) or it's time for new bearings. The only real deficiency of the stock oil pump has to do with breakage of the gears owing to extreme abuse. This is of concern to owners of '01-'05 cars, but of little importance to the rest of us.

Last edited by Joe Perez; 12-10-2008 at 07:59 PM.
Joe Perez is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-10-2008, 07:45 PM   #7
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Portsmouth, VA
Posts: 115
Total Cats: 0
Default

Again thanks for taking the time to reply.

I saw that on flying miata, only thing that had my attention on the site i posted was the price. As for the oil pressure, i guess im just concerned with the gears literally breaking with the extra RPMS the motor may see.
JETSWU87 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-10-2008, 07:56 PM   #8
Boost Pope
iTrader: (8)
 
Joe Perez's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Delicious and Moist.
Posts: 26,328
Total Cats: 1,926
Default

Do I take it then that you have an '01-'05 Miata and yet wish to purchase a set of the billet gears? Or were you hoping to retrofit a later pump onto your '00 or earlier engine?

My suspicion (which is based on zero actual evidence) is that the gears in the '01+ cars, though incompatible with the earlier pumps, are probably manufactured via the same process, and thus just as succeptable to damage when subjected to whatever provocation causes the failure in all the other cars. (RPM? vibration? crank flex?)

Also, I spoke in error earlier. Others have found that the gears in the VVT pump are indeed slightly thicker than those found in the earlier cars (and presumably the non-VVT MSM) and thus it is reasonable to expect that the purpose for the redesign was to provide additional volume to deal with the oil lost through the VVT system. Post edited.
Joe Perez is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-10-2008, 08:04 PM   #9
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Portsmouth, VA
Posts: 115
Total Cats: 0
Default

I have a 95 1.8 that im in the process of getting some plans together. Im really just researching different pieces now, ill be purchasing...rods,pistons, cams, valvetrain here shortly. Those are the easy choices, its things like this that has me reading a lot. The motor is going to be a high compression N/A motor.

I think im just going to go with one of the 01+ pumps, i have to buy a new one anyway.

I have one other question, but to keep this thread on topic. I'll PM you.

Thanks again.
JETSWU87 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-10-2008, 08:42 PM   #10
Boost Pope
iTrader: (8)
 
Joe Perez's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Delicious and Moist.
Posts: 26,328
Total Cats: 1,926
Default

PM answered.

I honestly wouldn't bother with the '01+ pump. There are literally thousands of people driving extremely high-HP Miatas; some turbo, some S/C, some high-compression "all motor" builds, and I've never heard of anybody having a problem with inadequate oil flow or pressure that wasn't caused by crappy plumbing, cheap filters, overheating, or just a worn-out enigne. Just use the same oil pump as everybody else, buy the billet gears, and if you really want to be over-cautious, pick up an ATI Super Damper to replace the front pulley.

While you're in there, try to get the VR crankshaft sensor from a '96-'97 car, along with the little timing wheel that goes behind the crank pulley, and of course, the '96+ style pulley itself. Since you're probably not going to be running the stock ECU, this will give you a much more stable trigger source than the belt-driven CAS.

And like I said in the PM, find a '99-'00 head (and matching intake manifold) to go on your '95 block. Much better airflow.
Joe Perez is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-10-2008, 10:45 PM   #11
Cpt. Slow
iTrader: (25)
 
curly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Oregon City, OR
Posts: 12,110
Total Cats: 518
Default

have you checked out the Targa miata build for help? Keith gives some good tips and tricks for N/A builds. Notice he runs the stock oil pump, and I think he said he dyno'ed around 200hp
curly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-11-2008, 10:48 PM   #12
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Portsmouth, VA
Posts: 115
Total Cats: 0
Default

I have not, could you by chance post a link?
JETSWU87 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-11-2008, 11:32 PM   #13
Cpt. Slow
iTrader: (25)
 
curly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Oregon City, OR
Posts: 12,110
Total Cats: 518
Default

Targa Miata just click on the build diary, then the 5th entry is tagged about the engine, click on 'engine' and it'll bring up all the build diary entries pertaining to the engine, handy.

His best run was 162.4rwhp, but he said about a 20% increase would happen once he went from colorado to newfoundland (sea level). He never dynoed it there but it would be about 195rwhp. Keep in mind his goal was good torque throughout the rpm range, NOT peak hp.
curly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-11-2008, 11:35 PM   #14
Senior Member
iTrader: (14)
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Murfreesboro,TN
Posts: 1,280
Total Cats: 53
Default

I don't yet have a turbo Miata but after discussing building one with a friend, he mentioned that he's been running a stock oil pump for his 96 up until earlier this year. That includes years of 8000 and 9000 rpm extended use (Solo and track days). The oil pump didn't fail, he just decided it was time to replace it.
Midtenn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-11-2008, 11:50 PM   #15
Cpt. Slow
iTrader: (25)
 
curly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Oregon City, OR
Posts: 12,110
Total Cats: 518
Default

Same kinda argument as rear diffs, some 1.6 diffs have lasted through plenty of high power and abuse. Mine for example, has lasted through 200+hp and track days with wide tires. Others have failed at stock 90hp.

your friend should have kept the old oil pump if its lasted this long.
curly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-12-2008, 12:12 AM   #16
Senior Member
iTrader: (14)
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Murfreesboro,TN
Posts: 1,280
Total Cats: 53
Default

I've learned over the years, its more how you drive and how you maintain vs. how much power you're outputting. Some of it is luck of the draw too. Not all parts are created the same.
Midtenn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-12-2008, 12:35 AM   #17
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Portsmouth, VA
Posts: 115
Total Cats: 0
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by curly View Post
Targa Miata just click on the build diary, then the 5th entry is tagged about the engine, click on 'engine' and it'll bring up all the build diary entries pertaining to the engine, handy.

His best run was 162.4rwhp, but he said about a 20% increase would happen once he went from colorado to newfoundland (sea level). He never dynoed it there but it would be about 195rwhp. Keep in mind his goal was good torque throughout the rpm range, NOT peak hp.
Great link, I love how he built his own header. I can see how that can be a big choke point. Im very surprised that hes running a factory intake manifold.
JETSWU87 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-12-2008, 12:58 AM   #18
Cpt. Slow
iTrader: (25)
 
curly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Oregon City, OR
Posts: 12,110
Total Cats: 518
Default

he mentioned individual throttle bodies a lot but never did anything about it, they're a fairly large pain for very little gain, and you run into the problems of synchronizing them. He may not of wanted to do that when switching from higher to lower altitude, it may have thrown off his tune.
curly is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-13-2008, 01:14 PM   #19
Elite Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 6,454
Total Cats: 80
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Perez View Post
The only real deficiency of the stock oil pump has to do with breakage of the gears owing to extreme abuse. This is of concern to owners of '01-'05 cars, but of little importance to the rest of us.
I know about oil pumps breakint at 8000+ RPM, but is there evidence the 01-05 oil pumps are weaker?
JasonC SBB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-13-2008, 05:41 PM   #20
Boost Pope
iTrader: (8)
 
Joe Perez's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Delicious and Moist.
Posts: 26,328
Total Cats: 1,926
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JasonC SBB View Post
I know about oil pumps breakint at 8000+ RPM, but is there evidence the 01-05 oil pumps are weaker?
Oh, not at all. I expect that the '01-'05 gears are identical in materials and tooling to the earlier gears, and thus no better or worse. I just meant that since billet gears are available currently for the '90-'00 cars, that for those building hi-revving engines the potential for breakage is only a concern if you have a VVT car for which said gears are not presently available. (My understanding is that they are forthcoming.)
Joe Perez is offline   Reply With Quote
 
 
Reply

Related Topics
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
OTS Bilstein to motorsports ASN conversion stoves Suspension, Brakes, Drivetrain 5 04-21-2016 04:00 PM
Moroso Air Oil Separator Catch Can Aroundcorner Miata parts for sale/trade 2 10-01-2015 04:20 PM
Walbro 255lph Fuel Pump $50 lsc224 Miata parts for sale/trade 2 10-01-2015 10:17 AM
Bad head gasket or ? shooterschmidty Engine Performance 8 09-30-2015 11:28 PM


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:54 PM.