thoughts on removing oil injectors?
 

I am having an engine built by Ocean @ Chikara right now and he suggested removing the oil injectors and that he does this on nearly every build he does. I am going FI (Rotrex) and just wanted a second opinion or some input. I trust him with basically anything Miata related but he builds a lot of N/A engines where it would make sense to remove but what about an FI engine? He said his 1.9L N/A is running extremely high cyl head and egt temps (higher than most FI engines, the way he tuned it) and said if his car is fine mine will be as well.

Any thoughts?

Why would you want to INTENTIONALLY remove something that makes your car run safer and cooler helping it stay safe?
Sounds stupid to me.

That's kind of what I'm asking. But thanks for the input! :P

Remember that there are many boosted engines out there that do not have oil injectors.

subscribed, I want to hear this

Yes but also remember that many OEM turbocharged cars use this and it is specifically designed to aid cars in running safer and not melting stuff or detonating or running exessively hot.

I want to hear what he claims woudl be the BENEFIT of removing them.

He said the benefit is lower oil temps and less fuel dilution in the oil. Do you know who Ocean is?

one of the main points of oil is for cooling the internals! oil squirters = better cooling, not sure why you'd remove them.

And hotter detonating pistons! Fun times :)

if you want cooler oil, get an oil cooler. do you know who BRAINEACK is?

lol i call bs on his NA stroker seeing more severe use than an FI motor he would have to be spining 8k rpms and running some pretty extreme tunning. That being said the thermal laod on a boosted motor is always going to be higher than, on an NA motor for any given hp. Given this the slight cooling and wristpin oiling etc done by the squirters is a real boon to longevity in your car, unless they are totally fubard and you can not score any replacements i would 100% keep them. FWIW his 1.9L at best has 200-220 hp your 1.8 or 1.6 puts that down with less rpms and about 8-12 psi depending on the effeceincy of the system. If you ever decide to bump the boost up on your motor wich you know you will then 15+ psi will put you in a whole nother world of usage compared to him.

His engine sees 9000RPM's and has 2000* EGT's.

FM mentions on their site that their pistons are designed to be able to remove the oil squirters too.... apparently it is a common thing.... that was all that i could find out though.

Maybe call FM and ask them why you would do it, and what their pistons do to offer the ability to remove them.

Im not an FM part whore, but i noticed this when flipping through their catalog.

oil cooler = more cooling of oil than removing the squirters could ever imagine to achieve.

Plus as brainey said: isn't the whole POINT of oil to COOL the engine by transfering its heat into itself?

If you have forged pistons, you will be fine if you remove them. The mitsubishi 4g63-T came with oil squirters from the factory, however many rebuilders omit them when building motors with forged bottom ends with no negative side effects. This also allows for the use of non-turbo cores (no oil squirters) for building new motors as factory turbo motors can sometimes be hard to find for a decent price depending on where you are.

*EDIT* I'm not saying you SHOULD remove them, I'm just relaying what I've seen on other platforms.

Power is lost to the oil being tossed up there though. With an NA engine... he wants/needs every bit he can get. Turbo... just add another 1psi.

You're negativity is kind of irritating me. Do some research on who this guy is, and then tell me he is dumb after. He chooses to run "dangerous" that's fine. AFAIK he also has build the highest HP 1.9L N/A in N. America just chooses not to flog it all over the internet. :jerkit:

Here, have a read.

http://clubroadster.net/vb_forum/showthread.php?t=18582

Here is the paragraph where FM talks about not needing Oil Squirters.

Ya thanks Jeff... that's kind of what I've come across thus far researching. I think I'm just going to do what he says. I did email FM and am waiting for a response. Based on the whole break in process he is making me do, to make sure the rings seat correctly and everything is running right I'll take his word that they can come out. If anything negative happens because of it, I have no doubt in my mind he would make it right.

Wooo.... 150whp from a 1.9l!!! God our motors suck. I wonder what his total build cost was... more than a greddy kit I bet :p

That's not a 1.9L, that's a 1.7L ;). The 1.9L is in his personal car and is running 13:1 compression pistons. And that 150whp is on a dynapack.

:giggle:
Relax.

No need to get your panties in a bunch.
If I hear a good explanation with proof of it being beneficial and not dangerous I might change my mind..

Oh I'm relaxed, I just get annoyed when people are TRYING to be a dick.

A tip... don't mention one engine... and then link to another :p

Cost to power ratio of NA is just painful... especially in these old engines :P. Once again making me happy that I'm putting a better motor in my car :)

Ya I know... lol I didn't realize that until after I posted. But it gives you an idea on how much of a perfectionist he is.

The whole NA vs. Turbo thing will never die, and that's not what this thread was about. But if you every have a chance to ride in a 180+whp N/A Miata... do it. It's a completly different feel from a turbo car, and one of the reasons I decided to go Rotrex instead of turbo.

He isn't doing anything that a normal good motor builder should do honestly. I see lots of measuring and such, but its all normal stuff.

I had an almost 200whp NA car... I like my turbo car just fine. Better powerband than I've seen from the charts on those miata motors also... the bonus of it being a Honda :).

I think that would be retarded to remove oil squirters. For the reasons mentioned above. You go ahead and tear them out though. This seems to be mentioned alot on m.net. Which also makes me think it to be stupid.

Ya hondas don't count...lol

And yes, he is "just another engine builder" but the reason I am using him is I know he has lots of experience with the engine and is very precise and I know it will be done right the first time :D. I'm not having a full build done, just bottom end and a valve/spring job. I am doing the rest.

Power loss due to pumping losses from the oil squirters? That's got to be some of the craziest BS I've heard, unless I'm completely missing something. If you remove the oil squirters, your oil pressure should be increased. An increase in oil pressure means that the engine is working harder to pump that oil through the engine. This would translate to less wheel power available if you *removed* the oil squirters.

But maybe I'm missing something?

Simplest thing to do then... is if you trust his build knowledge... just defer to him. Not the peanut gallery here.

I've seen lots of arguments over the years to running them and not (on forged piston motors). Everyone had their own soapbox... no real data.

TRYING implies that I didn't succeed:giggle:

Comparison of the motor in question versus my stock block 1.6 with a 57trim t3/t04e. I had roughly half the $$$ into my old setup.

http://lh5.ggpht.com/_tMYIeupe-9Q/S8...rbo_vs_ITB.jpg

Ouch.

For the record though, I can't rip on that car. It gets the JayL stamp of approval for being bad as fuck. I'm simply comparing output.

Yes, that is true :D... but that's just how you roll.
Exactly. There's a lot of "I don't think" on here. But so far no one who actually builds motors has chimed in. Which was the purpose of this thread. Not to get personal opinions.

I've built motors... but you just won't hear anything beyond opinions and hearsay.

Yes, tis true. Didn't know you built motors...

Building them does not mean I'm a shop and pro builder ;) But yah, have built a few over the years.

If having oil squirters makes your oil hotter then they are doing their job by removing heat from the piston. Removing heat from the piston is far more important for reducing detonation in a forced induction engine than in a naturally aspirated one.

In a naturally aspirated engine that is sucking wind and fighting it's builder for every fraction of a horsepower I can see where a builder would want to lighten the fractions of ounces of oil present on the bottoms of the pistons or clinging to the cylinder walls needing to be removed by the oil control rings. But we are not those people. We have the benefit of technological advances made in the 1940s to force more air mass into our engines to overcome inefficiencies in engine design.

We have had enough threads regarding the uneven cooling and detonation issues in our engines to cause me not to desire the removal of items that may be beneficial to the cooling of my pistons when given the choice. Why tempt fate and take the chance? Is there a proven benefit that makes it equivalent or greater than the risk?

Did Mazda add unnecessary parts into our engines because they enjoy throwing away money? Aren't those longevity enhancing parts even more necessary when you demand more than twice the intended output from the same engine?

How many horsepower are you supposedly gaining from rolling the dice with your engine? One horsepower? One quarter horsepower? Why would that be worthwhile?

But it seems from your comments to other skeptics that you have made up your mind, so enjoy your squirterless engine and let us know how that works out.

Well said sir.

Apparently we are not allowed to question someone doing something illogical due to them being a "top notch builder"
Next that builder will tell us he doesn't use intercoolers due to the weight gain and operating at 200* AIT's is perfectly "ok";)

Wait is Tom building his engine?

Me thinks you got a hard on for this dude.

But... but... not removing heat from the motor is precisely why the Hyper Coolant Reroute™ is so revolutionary and undisclosed! Don't you know we want to keep as much heat out of the oil and coolant as possible?!?

Removing oil squirters is pretty typical on Honda B motors when converting to forged pistons, whether NA or FI. Thousands of LS/VTEC motors run fine without oil squirters with cast and forged pistons, and both FI and NA with both of those piston types. The reason I mention that is because the LS block has no squirters, but the B16 and B18C5 (GSR) motor do have them. Yet people building an LS/VTEC motor run their motors at the same redline typically making more power. Well machined and assembled, they have no issues. They are open deck, aluminum blocks though which could arguably allow them to cool more efficiently.

I wouldn't outright object to it being fine on a B6/BP, I'd want to see further field testing. I wouldn't want to do it on my motor though. For an all out build doing full coatings on rods, crank, pistons, etc I see it being a benefit for the reduced windage. In a build like that you are eeking out every ounce of power you can. Thats not a normal build though, and without seeing real world measurements and results I won't draw any sort of conclusion on it either way for a miata motor.

i am very interested to hear more oppinions.

i mentioned this in my build thread, and thought it was a tad out there... but this is solidifying my original thoughts.

I think this argument calls for a poll in the form of:
a.) remove oil squirters and gain mad HP!
b.) leave the oil squiters there or you will detonate etc.!!!
c.) remove oil squirters for further benefit only if you are friction coating entire bottom end, knife edge-ing your crank, installing oil scrapers and so on...

All three sides seem to have valid points...let's vote!

NINJA edit!
d.) Say: "fuck the world" if you're with Hustler!

For me this would simple, if you don't trust your engine builder to give you good information, he probably shouldn't be building your engine in the first place.

On the other hand, the advice your engine builder gives is also based on what you have told him. If you told him you have deep pockets and want an all out build, I'm sure he has a few ideas to get you there. This would also take into consideration that you are aware that an all out build would need a re-freshening quite often and isn't built for longevity. After seeing your actions and what you've posted up on this forum so far, I hope you told him you were seeking nice things but are a cheap bastard that doesn't want to spend the money a second time. Being upfront with your expected outcome will benefit you more in the long run.

As for the builder in question, I'd trade my car in a heart beat for one of his creations. He's a detail oriented guy that knows how to build an awesome normally aspirated car. How well that carries over to an all out turbo build, we won't really know until he does it.

I do know one vendor in the Miata community that does have a successful motor program. Let me know if you can't figure out who that is.

If you mistake being careful with my hard earned money and wanting to spend it once, rather than re-doing things or having to re-buy parts then sure I guess I'm a cheap bastard.

And I do trust my builder, I just wanted to see what others though on the subject.

And also a shitty seller. Please send me the parts I paid for. I've been more than patient with you.

To everyone else who wanted to learn about oil squirters, sorry to bring this up in here, but at this point I am annoyed with this kid.

You got my last PM and I didn't hear back. My iTrader feedback on many forums counter what you have to say. I've made my offer, and if you won't take it then fine.

to anyone who wants to know what the deal is. I bought this mook's turbo kit here https://www.miataturbo.net/showpost....39&postcount=1

He never sent the FPR/FMU or charge pipe. He assumed I didnt need them so he didnt send them, and now expects me to pay for shipping for them. Give me a break.

^ most logic in this thread so far, leave the squirters in. As for gaining power by loosing the mass of the oil clinging to the pistons and the cylinder walls, you need a vacuum pump. Vacuum in the crank case causes the oil to flow more freely, because there is no turbulence or resistance, it also increases the differentiation between combustion chamber and crank case pressure causing the piston rings to seal more efficiently which can net some hp . Im working on a inexpensive and effective solution right now. This is nothing new it has been around for years, but usually on things like high-end drag cars, nascar, and the like, just to expensive. Another thing to ponder is in engines with a lot of vacuum being used typically add oil squirters if they dont have them already.

Well this thread did it's purpose. To gather more infor on the squirters. I'm going to sit down with my builder and discuss it, and see why he wants to take them out and go from there. Then figure out if it's the best option for my build.

I have a crankcase vacuum system on the '68 GTO. It employs Bernoulli's Principle to create a slight vacuum or at least reduce crankcase pressure due to blowby. The kits are quite simple and inexpensive and have been around for about 20 years. They employ the old emissions air pump check valves to keep the pulses from going the wrong direction. If employed with a catch can inline, you will end up with very little or no oil vapor in your exhaust.
Here's an example:http://www.jegs.com/i/Mr.+Gasket/720/6002/10002/-1

How well do they work? I can empty a gallon jug of water in a couple of seconds if I drop the breather hose down in it and rev the throttle by hand.

That is the type of inexpensive kit I'm trying to make for everyone, I just want to make sure it wil handle track abuse. It would only come on in boost so that the motor would not be constantly running. The expensive ones run off a belt and the pumps alone can range from $200-1000 and are usualy part of a drysump oiling system.

FWIW I believe FM is also starting to build there 2.0L motors with the oil squirters removed. And with Ceramic coatings on the piston tops.

I think the under side of the piston is getting over oiled and with loose fitting forged pistons all the extra oil can overwhelm the oil control rings and with the piston design it really doesn’t help piston cooling that much any way. It might be better to keep all the oil flow going to protecting bearings in highly stressed motors.

If you want to see a piston designed to work with oil squerters look at a 323 GTR piston. The ring lands are machined in cast Iron ring cast into the piston and the oil squirters squirt into a cavity in the piston through a hole in the bottom of the piston and it is routed to cool the cast Iron ring lands directly.

I also know of several other engines besides Honda where when they start making lots of power and are using forged pistons builders remove the squirters. Such as Neon SRT-4’s.

Bob

323 GTR piston

That's similar to the RB26 squirters.

IIRC all our squirters do is splat oil on the bottom of the piston?

I believe the 2jzgte also uses the hole for the oil squirters. I don't have any kind of proof of anything working but my vote is to keep the oil squirters as a precaution

FM's response.

Interesting because I think it is the extra oil consumption that has been causing my issues on the track and not so much for street use. Extra oil in the combustion chamber under full load is bad for many reasons.

The Wiseco pistons have huge passages between the underside of the piston and the oil control rings compared to stock as the Stock pistons have none. Also the bottom side of the new Wiseco pistons don’t seem to be shaped where squirting oil up on them would hit areas I would think would be close proximity to the heat sources on the top side thus Probably ineffective at sucking much extra heat out anyway.

Bob

[QUOTE=JayL;630954

As for the builder in question, I'd trade my car in a heart beat for one of his creations. He's a detail oriented guy that knows how to build an awesome normally aspirated car. How well that carries over to an all out turbo build, we won't really know until he does it.[/QUOTE]

Your only a few hours drive from Ocean,if you get a chance,take the trip and drive down and pay him a visit.He has since moved to a new and bigger shop,this new place has all the goodies inside.It's well worth the trip to see all the crazy NA cars,Ocean is cool to talk to also....if you can understand him.

I just got another response after emailing back. He said if the pistons allow the squirters to be installed without any modification then it's up to me. He said either way it will be fine... but he said if you have pistons that require bending the squirters to just leave them out as he has seen them fail before after bending them.


PS... Neil you suck at quoting... lol :P