Turbo Miata Racing series wants your input..
 

Below is a dyno sheet from a 1.6 liter with a Greddy Turbo that is limited to 6PSI boost. The boost is limited by the leak valve attached to the intake manifold. This set up will be used in a Turbo Miata Spec racing series, so all cars will have identical turbo set ups. The leak valve opens at 6.1PSI, but doesn't close till 3.5 PSI, so spiking boost is clearly not an advantage.
Protege IC
MSM BOV(recirculated)
Stock Injectors
Stock Fuel Pump


Rules:
No wastegate management, must have hose direct from turbo outlet to actuator. Actuators will be tested for PSI at which rod moves. Again everyone should have matching actuators.

All cars have the same exhaust (open 2.5 inch).
1.6 Engine to be completely stock. No modification allowed, including intake, TB etc.
Ignition sytem is open. COP, individual coils OK ( ECU can handle)
Timing and Fuel management is open ( ECU is fully programmable)
Cam Timing is open, but must use stock cams.
91 Octane fuel ONLY, no additives.
No water injection allowed.

Top four finishers will have fuel sampled and tested, Leak valves tested and actuators tested. Engine will be scoped for valve changes, head and intake mods. ECU files will be downloaded and posted to the series website for all to share, so spending $$$$ on the dyno is good only for a one race advantage.

Suggestions wanted for:
Improving the HP/Torque for Turbo newbies given base set up results (see dyno sheet). The 7hp improvement is by adding 2* of timing.

Cheap knock indicator?

Ways to cheat, and ways to prevent cheating.
Thanks!

Why are you guys using the Greddy kit?

We haven't deciced on it being the exact unit we will end up using, but the manifolds and turbo are readily available, reasonably priced, and the known problems are solvable (we relief cut the manifolds). Personally I want a water and oil cooled turbo, twin scroll unit, but keeping cost down is major consideration.

Hmm, why can't it be a comparable turbo. Didn't greddy go out of business.

Great plan though. Cheap racing, with tough comparable competition.
+1

Forget the weak topmount greddy piece of junk. I hate that manifold, not from experience but just the design in general.
If you guys want hardcore reliability then work something out with BEGI and get everyone running the cast sidemount manifold for track duty. I have never seen a BEGI mani crack except one that had been modified with an external wastegate addition. Then you could use the BEGI-S downpipe which is super cheap and easy to install.

Garrett turbos could also be had cheaply if you got someone with a dealer account to offer them at near cost or at cost for the sake of the series. Then work out a deal with anplumbing.com to make it super easy to buy all the oil and coolant fittings for whatever turbo you want to run in the series.

You'll want to inspect all turbos for compressor swaps, people boring out the compressor housing to run a larger or more efficient wheel.

Another issue is the Greddy wastegate actuator sucks big time. Its way weak and has horrible boost control. Allowing or requiring a WG actuator swap should be priority considering how critical boost control will be in this low power series.

Super Miata
 

Aaron at Speedventures here in Cali has been wanting to do something like this for ages. I started working on a rules set and event configuration about a year ago but that's about it. Keith Verges in Texas has a few cars built and running as a demo class in SCCA and NASA. I think Shane Benson of AIM tuning also has a few cars built and approval from their NASA region to run as a demo class.

What do you have planned for hosting the events, what tracks, series points and such? I'd suggest contacting Aaron at Speedventures.com.

So far though, no one has really put anything cohesive together. Shane had the idea of requiring data acquisition to have a monitor acceleration rates like they do in American Iron.

One benefit of using DA is it doesn't matter what you do to the whole car, it can only accelerate so hard or it gets DQ'ed. MaxQdata is cheap, Traqmate a more flexible and powerful system costing a few hundy more

After much research I started leaning towards having two classes. An N/A or low boost F/I class and a more unlimited class. My N/A project car is hugely faster than a spec Miata, cost about 11k to build from scratch and has 100% stock engine internals. As this project progresses I'm starting to find a recipe for maybe 160whp using junkyard parts, race exhaust, intake and ECU. Pull some weight out the car, modest spoilers, real set of coilovers and 8-9" wheels and suddenly you have an Elise eater.

Not against turbo's but I'm not convinced they are the best low buck option.

On a side note, a few of us have put together a Miata only time attack event,www.MiataChallenge.com

Excellent feedback , really appreciate it. Will follow on several of the points brought up here.

I'd consider working with FM and/or BEGi to see what sort of deal you could work out as the product you use. Maybe allow both kits with a specific fueling package. I'm sure both companies would be more than willing to work with you here and provide a "Turbo Miata Racing Series Kit."

The Greddy parts are weaksauce. I'd much rather do one stop shopping, and have to spend a few bucks more and get quality oil/water lines and components that will stand track abuse. The DP sucks, the manifold sucks, the oil return sucks, the wastegate actuator sucks, the intake filter sucks, the utilization of the stock crossover sucks, etc.

I'd fear with GReddy components, there will be a lot of downtime after each race, especially if the user failed to take the proper precautions.

You might want to consider a group buy on the cast 1.6 mani from ebay. IIRC, there are a couple on this site running it now and they were about $100. At least they would all be the same.

If I were building spec for turbo I'd leave it open. Also agree that staying away from Greddy is a good idea. Not a single part in that kit will survive real track abuse, and the company filed chapter 11 in September.

Limit acceleration rate (true power to weight ratio) via data acquistion and the rest doesn't matter. Forcing people to buy from one vendor works if your spec is bullet proof but it will also encourage modification of said parts. The DA monitoring is proven to work in NASA.

I may have had different goals with my series but I really wanted to encourage junkyard dogs. Whatever turbo & manifold you could find. There will be the guy that buys an resonably priced ETD Racing custom manifold and puts a used Saab or Volvo turbo he picked up for $50. He'll be limited to the same effective power to weight ratio as the kunucklhead that shows up with a $ 15000 motor.

The other thing we considered is a $6000 claimer rule for the entire motor and turbo. Wasted your money on a built engine and huge ball bearing turbo; thank you, I'll take that. Maybe $3500 for just the long block.

My entire 150whp N/A long block would cost $2300 to duplicate. I'd happily sell it for $3500.

Keith Verges in Dallas is already 12 cars into a 40 car SM-T series. Emilio should know that, since they are running his 15X8 6UL wheels.

The cars are Spec Miatas with a Hydra ECU, FMII Turbo Kit, Koni Race shocks, and 375lbs rear springs. Last I heard, he was selling them for $18k, ready to race.

He bought a pile of wheels for that but I didn't know how many cars he actually had up and running. 12, wow, cool.

Yeah, um, drgoodwrench, spec my wheels.

I talked to one of Keith's buddies (driving the yellow and black turbo miata) who within 1 minute told me that BEGi sucked, MS was going to blow shit up, Hydra was better because it data-logged, and that he had sex with animals. He didn't have any real reason, just felt like talking shit.

Hopefully they don't plan on running this series at MSR, I'd like to be able to run out there on occasion.


Isn't verges also buying motors off of Stoid? If so, get ready for a serious "lol."

Keith asked my opinion on ECU's way back when and I suggested the AEM. The Hydra sold for the Miata in the US does not have the ability to monitor or log EGT's. I guess that feature is not important to some, but is is very important to me when tuning an F/I motor.

Stock motors. I am sure he is getting them made by Day Custom in N. Dallas. I know in his yellow SM-T it's just a junkyard motor.

Yup, I've heard about this series running out at MSR, but haven't had a chance to see any of the cars yet.

Have you taken the additional cooling requirements into consideration?

52mm Toyo radiator is all I know of. I don't think he did a coolant re-route or anything.

I'm a fan of the Mitsubishi Turbos, they are OEM quality since they are used by many OEs :)

Keith was adamant that a reroute wasn't neccesary. I'm skeptical. He cuts a huge hole in the bumper skin so the top of the radiator is actually doing something.

good, I like John and he seems to be the kind of guy who deserves the business, in a town which seems to be chock-full of shady machinists. The yellow car is pretty clean, with some cool body work. I know that about 1-year ago they suffered from cooling problems, hopefully they've fixed it by now.

no one in Dallas thinks its necessary. As far as I know, I'm the only one who's done it, and I constantly hear about how useless it is...that's when the locals aren't talking about turbo unreliability, typically that comes after they tell me that I should have used PCPro because MegaSquirt is unreliable. This is also entertaining because there is at least one guy with Hydra who's injectors peg open and it smokes like a diesel...yet nothing is wrong with it.

A shop in lewisville did the work on the SM-T yellow car, and it looks incredible. I've considered letting them do that work to my bumper...but I could just buy the super-jdm-vtak-type-R scoop thingie from japan for the same price.

In our prototype, we have fashioned a couple of unique pieces for the cooling system to allow the coolant from the back of the head to go to the radiator rather than re-circulate as hot water back into the block. IF we ran an H2O cooled turbo we could splice in here.We are also running custom Ron Davis Aluminum Radiators that mate well with the IC. Airflow into the radiator/IC is maximised by blocking off escape routes.
Not shown in this photo is the Setrab Oil cooler that will be mounted in the passenger Head light area nd vented out the top of the cover.

Seems there is a real "issue" with the fuel management. The ECU we are using has a very user friendly interface with table resolutions of 7% load steps and 250RPM increments. Injector tuning is in millisecond increments, with % duty cycle real time display. It has a closed loop mode if you want, and even turns on and off the CEL appropriately. Will run a fan if you like, and has user definable inputs and outputs to run just about anything ( even the IACV if you wanted to, with idle control logic).
This unit may become available outside the series if there is enough demand.
Oh, and it fits inside the OEM box and can run off the stock MAF for NA applications.....

i wish I could delete posts like this one.

Info on shop??? I don't mind having my bumper hacked up for a little more cooling! Thanks.

its in my "card pit" somewhere. I'll never find it.

You D-boys go ahead and spend your money for some "hack" to hack on your bumper.
Hustler, I already told you we could do it for ya.
By the way, mine only cost me "Free" dollars. :giggle:
That's for front and the rear.

I already told you ------s that I wasn't going to hack up my bumper, hence the FM hood $$$. Now stfu with your power-queer shit. Next time I come up there I'm going to piss on you and john, and hopefully this time a little bit of my golden nectar will trickle in your mouth, because I hear that's the only way you can get off,------.


I still want to hook up and make that splitter, if I ever come home, which I won't. BTW, there's a PCA day at Harris Hills on 11/08...let's crash it.

You must be "Crunk".....:giggle:
Anyways, it's easier to work on your car when you're not around.......
Make a decision on your diff bushings and we can have that knocked out for ya.

Man, if you gays are so bored that you want to go ahead and knock that shit out, go for it and let me know where to send the money for the bushings. I think John wants my car together so he can drive it and convince himself to go FI. Are you sure that working on my car is something you guys want to get into?

John had mentioned it and I already committed....soooooo.
Yes, I'm thinking he's still open in the FI department; although his car is extremely well sorted out in NA form.
If you are wanting to upgrade the bushings, we are both using the Poly-pros from Gary. The Delrin bushings had some height differences that I was concerned with and chose not to use them. They are prolly fine though.
Let John know and he'll get 'em and we can get the housing off and over to Bo's for your gearing needs. ;)

If you guys want some help, Hit me up.

anyone else want to roll over to my house and work on my car? I also need someone to clean up the shitty finish on not so "ready for paint" FM hood.

You betcha! :bigtu:

screw it we need a big balls racing miata series. Set a HP cap dyno each car and seal ecus etc from tuning i persay 300 whp limit and 200 whp limit classes.

I'd offer....but my old ass just got done painting mine. Pics will be up shortly.
Prep isn't hard, just I'm burnt on painting for a bit.
Now if you have some parts laying around that I need, then I will do it. ;)

I'm with ya, sanding sucks.

Do you paint professional quality??? or just your own things? I have a miata that needs painting. I thought about doing it myself. But I would have to build a temporary paint booth in my friends large garage. It is a 30X60 and I don't want to clean overspray for the whole garage. LOL

Machisimo, you said you can do the bumper hack? Send me some info!

Yup. It works great actually. That is where I stole the idea for my car. His looks way better, but mine was free.

Sounds like they need to tune the Hydra.

Only time it has been an issue is over 300whp, even in August @ 110. We built a NB 1.8T drift car with 480whp, and we did the coolant reroute on it.

Same here. It works well, too.

Still up to my rattle can ways for the Tarantula. It is a track rat, but still looks way better than Maaco.
5 coats and wet sand blocking between each coat with 1 day dry time between each session. Last sanding session was with 2000 grit and some Mequiar's expenso waxing sessions. Pics to uploaded soon.
Car looks better than the day I brought it home over two years ago.
The end is finally in sight for this build.
Aside from FI of course! ;)

Here's some quick snaps during my build.... Let me know what you have in mind, and we can discuss options.

Back to what this thread is about.....
I am so interested in seeing this series become a reality.
It is this example wholly on my reasoning for my current build. ;)

I want to cut two of those slots on the passenger side of the rad opening for my oil cooler. Then, drop my shit off for paint with the new hood and continue to win at life.

Mine will have to be enlarged depending on the oil cooler I finally decide upon.
Matt Andrews is my inspiration, and his car is the perfect example.

Ray_sir_6 and Machismo, where did you get your hood pins? Somone drilled the holes on my brother's hood and then took the pins off.

Speaking of, does anyone in DFW with a good hood, want to trade for a perfect hood with hood pin holes professionally drilled.
Hit me up.

Vatozone....I'm too cheap for the Sparco units when it comes to just a pin.
I tried the flush mounts at first, but the curvature of the hood at that location was a no go. Prolly operator / installation error. ;)

Newbsauce has a set of the aerocatch flush mounts that look pretty good installed. Just don't buy the sparco flush mounts...he did and bought a new windshield along with his aerocatches.

nah they were Bride ones that failed...

Really? I thought I remembered them saying sparco...Guess you've seen it a lot more than me though.

I want the kind that have the swing pin on them.
I'm not pickey I'm just a tipical guy who wants to fill the hole.LOL

That and I don't want a wire on the paint, or a kid taking off with the pins.

look into aerocatches then, you can lock them so noone can open your hood w/o they key either.

Thanks

should I get pins for my FM hood? Why is the standard latch not good enough? I'll get those groovy, black flush mount looking ones.

Supposedly it's not good enough for fiberglass or CF hoods, I've never seen a stock latch fail though FWIW. The black flush mount ones are the aerocatches mentioned above, just don't get Bride one's :giggle:

I have still have my OEM latch as well.....never can be too safe. I've seen a few failures from pins and I'm not that hardcore for weight abaitment.
If were just a skinned panel w/o hinges, I would be all over the Aero's and a few more of 'em.

This thread is pretty much hijacked.

Remember that huge hole in the top of mine? I overheated during one session at BW. I'm in the market for a vented hood and a reroute.

Reroute is actually a free mod. It requires only the cheapest of supplies and some super common tools:
-a smallish wrench
-pliers/screwdrivers for hose clamps
-some of that super gray gasket sealant stuff
-a big length of radiator hose
-some wire to run the temp sensor to the front of the engine
-some hose for the heater core
-a barb fitting and some caps for the little thermostat stalk hoses

That's it.
A) remove thermostat and heater core/temp sensor housings
B) peel back sheathing on wire and clip the temperature sensor wire. Splice in some wire to make it long enough to reach the front of the engine bay
C) Put thermostat and thermostat housing on back of engine, seal with gasket sealant. When it is firmly attached, route radiator hose from there to radiator. The fit under the throttle body is tight but don't be a pussy about it. It's definitely doable.
D) Put temp sensor housing at front of engine, sealing the surface with gasket sealant. That gray stuff is awesome. Attach your super-long wire that you extended from teh back of the engine bay to the sensor. Zip tie the wire off to the side so it doesn't snag on anything.
E) attach heater core hose to temp sensor housing.
F) detach both of the little hoses on the "thermostat stalk" that no longer houses the thermostat. Use the little hose barb to connect them to each other. This will cause the pump to draw water directly through the intake manifold from teh back of the engine, right next to the new thermostat location. Seal off both of the stalk hose barbs.
G) You are done, have a beer.

This is my setup and it seems to work just fine so far. Engine heats up promptly and doesn't overheat even with both fans disabled.

Forgive me if this makes any sense, but with all this talk about limiting the boost to keep things even, I havent heard a damn thing about tire or wheel size restrictions.

ways to edgeup/cheat the competition...

LSD/gearing choices
clutches
tire selection (DOT slicks/shaved street tires)
rim selection
"creative" weight removal
uprated bushings
uprated brakes
painted CF body panels
heavily decked head and or block


powdercoated stock color but uprated:
struts/shocks
sway bars

just a few thoughts. either way, creating rules for a series will bring out the most ingenuitive people. Vague rules make for vague control.

That on top of the fact that "limiting boost" one is hard to do...you can always turn the knob on an MBC when no one is looking, plus different turbos can make drastically different numbers on the same boost..You would almost have to have the same mani-dp-turbo-wastegate setup and ban any form of boost control being on the car period.