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Old 10-12-2008, 12:17 PM   #1
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Default Turbo Miata Racing series wants your input..

Below is a dyno sheet from a 1.6 liter with a Greddy Turbo that is limited to 6PSI boost. The boost is limited by the leak valve attached to the intake manifold. This set up will be used in a Turbo Miata Spec racing series, so all cars will have identical turbo set ups. The leak valve opens at 6.1PSI, but doesn't close till 3.5 PSI, so spiking boost is clearly not an advantage.
Protege IC
MSM BOV(recirculated)
Stock Injectors
Stock Fuel Pump


Rules:
No wastegate management, must have hose direct from turbo outlet to actuator. Actuators will be tested for PSI at which rod moves. Again everyone should have matching actuators.

All cars have the same exhaust (open 2.5 inch).
1.6 Engine to be completely stock. No modification allowed, including intake, TB etc.
Ignition sytem is open. COP, individual coils OK ( ECU can handle)
Timing and Fuel management is open ( ECU is fully programmable)
Cam Timing is open, but must use stock cams.
91 Octane fuel ONLY, no additives.
No water injection allowed.

Top four finishers will have fuel sampled and tested, Leak valves tested and actuators tested. Engine will be scoped for valve changes, head and intake mods. ECU files will be downloaded and posted to the series website for all to share, so spending $$$$ on the dyno is good only for a one race advantage.

Suggestions wanted for:
Improving the HP/Torque for Turbo newbies given base set up results (see dyno sheet). The 7hp improvement is by adding 2* of timing.

Cheap knock indicator?

Ways to cheat, and ways to prevent cheating.
Thanks!
Attached Thumbnails
Turbo Miata Racing series wants your input..-prototypeblack.jpg   Turbo Miata Racing series wants your input..-specturbo.jpg  

Last edited by drgoodwrench; 10-12-2008 at 12:18 PM. Reason: missing data
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Old 10-12-2008, 12:36 PM   #2
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Why are you guys using the Greddy kit?
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Old 10-12-2008, 12:42 PM   #3
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We haven't deciced on it being the exact unit we will end up using, but the manifolds and turbo are readily available, reasonably priced, and the known problems are solvable (we relief cut the manifolds). Personally I want a water and oil cooled turbo, twin scroll unit, but keeping cost down is major consideration.
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Old 10-12-2008, 01:37 PM   #4
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Hmm, why can't it be a comparable turbo. Didn't greddy go out of business.

Great plan though. Cheap racing, with tough comparable competition.
+1
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Old 10-12-2008, 02:06 PM   #5
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Forget the weak topmount greddy piece of junk. I hate that manifold, not from experience but just the design in general.
If you guys want hardcore reliability then work something out with BEGI and get everyone running the cast sidemount manifold for track duty. I have never seen a BEGI mani crack except one that had been modified with an external wastegate addition. Then you could use the BEGI-S downpipe which is super cheap and easy to install.

Garrett turbos could also be had cheaply if you got someone with a dealer account to offer them at near cost or at cost for the sake of the series. Then work out a deal with anplumbing.com to make it super easy to buy all the oil and coolant fittings for whatever turbo you want to run in the series.

You'll want to inspect all turbos for compressor swaps, people boring out the compressor housing to run a larger or more efficient wheel.

Another issue is the Greddy wastegate actuator sucks big time. Its way weak and has horrible boost control. Allowing or requiring a WG actuator swap should be priority considering how critical boost control will be in this low power series.
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Old 10-12-2008, 04:12 PM   #6
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Default Super Miata

Aaron at Speedventures here in Cali has been wanting to do something like this for ages. I started working on a rules set and event configuration about a year ago but that's about it. Keith Verges in Texas has a few cars built and running as a demo class in SCCA and NASA. I think Shane Benson of AIM tuning also has a few cars built and approval from their NASA region to run as a demo class.

What do you have planned for hosting the events, what tracks, series points and such? I'd suggest contacting Aaron at Speedventures.com.

So far though, no one has really put anything cohesive together. Shane had the idea of requiring data acquisition to have a monitor acceleration rates like they do in American Iron.

One benefit of using DA is it doesn't matter what you do to the whole car, it can only accelerate so hard or it gets DQ'ed. MaxQdata is cheap, Traqmate a more flexible and powerful system costing a few hundy more

After much research I started leaning towards having two classes. An N/A or low boost F/I class and a more unlimited class. My N/A project car is hugely faster than a spec Miata, cost about 11k to build from scratch and has 100% stock engine internals. As this project progresses I'm starting to find a recipe for maybe 160whp using junkyard parts, race exhaust, intake and ECU. Pull some weight out the car, modest spoilers, real set of coilovers and 8-9" wheels and suddenly you have an Elise eater.

Not against turbo's but I'm not convinced they are the best low buck option.

On a side note, a few of us have put together a Miata only time attack event,www.MiataChallenge.com
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Old 10-12-2008, 09:35 PM   #7
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Excellent feedback , really appreciate it. Will follow on several of the points brought up here.
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Old 10-13-2008, 10:47 AM   #8
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I'd consider working with FM and/or BEGi to see what sort of deal you could work out as the product you use. Maybe allow both kits with a specific fueling package. I'm sure both companies would be more than willing to work with you here and provide a "Turbo Miata Racing Series Kit."

The Greddy parts are weaksauce. I'd much rather do one stop shopping, and have to spend a few bucks more and get quality oil/water lines and components that will stand track abuse. The DP sucks, the manifold sucks, the oil return sucks, the wastegate actuator sucks, the intake filter sucks, the utilization of the stock crossover sucks, etc.

I'd fear with GReddy components, there will be a lot of downtime after each race, especially if the user failed to take the proper precautions.
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Old 10-13-2008, 11:09 AM   #9
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You might want to consider a group buy on the cast 1.6 mani from ebay. IIRC, there are a couple on this site running it now and they were about $100. At least they would all be the same.
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Old 10-13-2008, 01:03 PM   #10
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If I were building spec for turbo I'd leave it open. Also agree that staying away from Greddy is a good idea. Not a single part in that kit will survive real track abuse, and the company filed chapter 11 in September.

Limit acceleration rate (true power to weight ratio) via data acquistion and the rest doesn't matter. Forcing people to buy from one vendor works if your spec is bullet proof but it will also encourage modification of said parts. The DA monitoring is proven to work in NASA.

I may have had different goals with my series but I really wanted to encourage junkyard dogs. Whatever turbo & manifold you could find. There will be the guy that buys an resonably priced ETD Racing custom manifold and puts a used Saab or Volvo turbo he picked up for $50. He'll be limited to the same effective power to weight ratio as the kunucklhead that shows up with a $ 15000 motor.

The other thing we considered is a $6000 claimer rule for the entire motor and turbo. Wasted your money on a built engine and huge ball bearing turbo; thank you, I'll take that. Maybe $3500 for just the long block.

My entire 150whp N/A long block would cost $2300 to duplicate. I'd happily sell it for $3500.
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Old 10-13-2008, 05:34 PM   #11
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Keith Verges in Dallas is already 12 cars into a 40 car SM-T series. Emilio should know that, since they are running his 15X8 6UL wheels.

The cars are Spec Miatas with a Hydra ECU, FMII Turbo Kit, Koni Race shocks, and 375lbs rear springs. Last I heard, he was selling them for $18k, ready to race.
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Old 10-13-2008, 06:06 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ray_sir_6 View Post
Keith Verges in Dallas is already 12 cars into a 40 car SM-T series. Emilio should know that, since they are running his 15X8 6UL wheels.

The cars are Spec Miatas with a Hydra ECU, FMII Turbo Kit, Koni Race shocks, and 375lbs rear springs. Last I heard, he was selling them for $18k, ready to race.
He bought a pile of wheels for that but I didn't know how many cars he actually had up and running. 12, wow, cool.

Yeah, um, drgoodwrench, spec my wheels.
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Old 10-13-2008, 07:03 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by emilio700 View Post
He bought a pile of wheels for that but I didn't know how many cars he actually had up and running. 12, wow, cool.

Yeah, um, drgoodwrench, spec my wheels.
I talked to one of Keith's buddies (driving the yellow and black turbo miata) who within 1 minute told me that BEGi sucked, MS was going to blow **** up, Hydra was better because it data-logged, and that he had sex with animals. He didn't have any real reason, just felt like talking ****.

Hopefully they don't plan on running this series at MSR, I'd like to be able to run out there on occasion.


Isn't verges also buying motors off of Stoid? If so, get ready for a serious "lol."
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Old 10-13-2008, 07:18 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hustler View Post
I talked to one of Keith's buddies (driving the yellow and black turbo miata) who within 1 minute told me that BEGi sucked, MS was going to blow **** up, Hydra was better because it data-logged, and that he had sex with animals. He didn't have any real reason, just felt like talking ****.

Hopefully they don't plan on running this series at MSR, I'd like to be able to run out there on occasion.


Isn't verges also buying motors off of Stoid? If so, get ready for a serious "lol."
Keith asked my opinion on ECU's way back when and I suggested the AEM. The Hydra sold for the Miata in the US does not have the ability to monitor or log EGT's. I guess that feature is not important to some, but is is very important to me when tuning an F/I motor.
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Old 10-13-2008, 08:26 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hustler View Post
I talked to one of Keith's buddies (driving the yellow and black turbo miata) who within 1 minute told me that BEGi sucked, MS was going to blow **** up, Hydra was better because it data-logged, and that he had sex with animals. He didn't have any real reason, just felt like talking ****.

Hopefully they don't plan on running this series at MSR, I'd like to be able to run out there on occasion.


Isn't verges also buying motors off of Stoid? If so, get ready for a serious "lol."
Stock motors. I am sure he is getting them made by Day Custom in N. Dallas. I know in his yellow SM-T it's just a junkyard motor.
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Old 10-13-2008, 08:29 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ray_sir_6 View Post
Keith Verges in Dallas is already 12 cars into a 40 car SM-T series. Emilio should know that, since they are running his 15X8 6UL wheels.

The cars are Spec Miatas with a Hydra ECU, FMII Turbo Kit, Koni Race shocks, and 375lbs rear springs. Last I heard, he was selling them for $18k, ready to race.
Yup, I've heard about this series running out at MSR, but haven't had a chance to see any of the cars yet.

Have you taken the additional cooling requirements into consideration?
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Old 10-13-2008, 08:41 PM   #17
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52mm Toyo radiator is all I know of. I don't think he did a coolant re-route or anything.
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Old 10-13-2008, 11:02 PM   #18
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IAlso agree that staying away from Greddy is a good idea. Not a single part in that kit will survive real track abuse, and the company filed chapter 11 in September.
I'm a fan of the Mitsubishi Turbos, they are OEM quality since they are used by many OEs
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Old 10-14-2008, 02:22 AM   #19
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52mm Toyo radiator is all I know of. I don't think he did a coolant re-route or anything.
Keith was adamant that a reroute wasn't neccesary. I'm skeptical. He cuts a huge hole in the bumper skin so the top of the radiator is actually doing something.
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Old 10-14-2008, 09:33 AM   #20
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Stock motors. I am sure he is getting them made by Day Custom in N. Dallas. I know in his yellow SM-T it's just a junkyard motor.
good, I like John and he seems to be the kind of guy who deserves the business, in a town which seems to be chock-full of shady machinists. The yellow car is pretty clean, with some cool body work. I know that about 1-year ago they suffered from cooling problems, hopefully they've fixed it by now.
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