when is a billet oil pump needed
I will be refreshing my track car's motor and wish to find out more about the necessity of an upgraded oil pump. I've been using the OEM motor for many seasons now without problem, as have a "gaggle" of spec maita's. I'm using sane boost/power levels and reasonable RPM limits.
I would like to know if the billet oil pump is an idea that was brought over as "insurance" from other manufacturers failures (toyota, ect), or if there have actually been miata failures? If there have been failures, at what hp/rpm levels did these occur. Presently, OEM 10:1 cr, stock internals, stock damper, 250 whp, 7400 rpm cut. Refresh: forged internals, 9:1 cr, ATI damper, possible Kelford cam, dual valve springs; target 275hp, 7600 spark cut. |
use the search function and you'll find the documented failures.
for the rest it's insurance because you don't want to take a chance when you have 6 grand + under the hood |
Tell us more about how you're building a $6500 longblock yet don't want to spend the $170 for the upgraded oil pump.
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The way I see it, a Boundary pump is something you buy instead of buying a new OEM pump when building a new engine. It's a small enough increase in cost that it's in the noise, and it's good insurance. I don't think I'd put one into an existing motor unless I had an oil pump that failed and miraculously didn't take out the rest of the engine at the same time.
--Ian |
<deleted double post>
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18 PSI: Yes, I did do a search, and only found this:https://www.miataturbo.net/engine-pe...-thread-73672/
It seems like the failures that I could find on "search" were mostly caused from debris that cause the pressure relief valve to stick open. The pumps that destroyed themselves seemed to be caused by removal of the harmonic damper. SAV: Aren't these more like $400? ... if I'm going to spend my $, even $170, then I'd like to find out find out what the actual facts are concerning the risk analysis for my application. Back to my basic question: has anyone ever blown an oil pump, unless they've done something wrong (like ran without a damper)? |
One of the cars I tuned has shattered the pump. Unopened oem engine, 250whp
Andrew (Savington) has broken at least 1. Many others have as well. |
Originally Posted by codrus
(Post 1402181)
The way I see it, a Boundary pump is something you buy instead of buying a new OEM pump when building a new engine. It's a small enough increase in cost that it's in the noise, and it's good insurance. I don't think I'd put one into an existing motor unless I had an oil pump that failed and miraculously didn't take out the rest of the engine at the same time.
--Ian When I rebuilt mine, it wasn't a question. Why get another OEM when I know I'll be making more HP and abusing the motor. :dunno: no ragrets. |
Originally Posted by gtred
(Post 1402170)
I will be refreshing my track car's motor and wish to find out more about the necessity of an upgraded oil pump. I've been using the OEM motor for many seasons now without problem, as have a "gaggle" of spec maita's. I'm using sane boost/power levels and reasonable RPM limits.
I would like to know if the billet oil pump is an idea that was brought over as "insurance" from other manufacturers failures (toyota, ect), or if there have actually been miata failures? If there have been failures, at what hp/rpm levels did these occur. Presently, OEM 10:1 cr, stock internals, stock damper, 250 whp, 7400 rpm cut. Refresh: forged internals, 9:1 cr, ATI damper, possible Kelford cam, dual valve springs; target 275hp, 7600 spark cut. |
Originally Posted by gtred
(Post 1402188)
SAV: Aren't these more like $400? ... if I'm going to spend my $, even $170, then I'd like to find out find out what the actual facts are concerning the risk analysis for my application. Back to my basic question: has anyone ever blown an oil pump, unless they've done something wrong (like ran without a damper)? AIUI, oil pump failures have been seen as a result of running lots of power and higher revs, even with the stock damper still installed. An ATI damper is enough better than the stock one that it's possible that might be enough to eliminate this. Or it might not, so depends on how paranoid you are. There isn't a lot of data on this. --Ian |
Originally Posted by 18psi
(Post 1402193)
One of the cars I tuned has shattered the pump. Unopened oem engine, 250whp
Andrew (Savington) has broken at least 1. Many others have as well. |
Mine exploded at under 200 whp, 7k rev limit, and not a single track day on it. ~2 months of street driving.
I'd say its needed. |
Don't run a new pump.
But you have to promise to post about it when something goes wrong so you can provide a newer case study for the next wave of forum members. |
If you get a BE pump, get it directly from them. Not through a vendor. They are amazing to deal with and will take care of you.
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Originally Posted by mmmjesse
(Post 1402318)
If you get a BE pump, get it directly from them. Not through a vendor. They are amazing to deal with and will take care of you.
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I think getting a BE pump from a good vendor is just as good as getting it directly from them. A vendor that ships in original packaging and doesn't muck with the pumps in-house, for instance.
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Originally Posted by psyber_0ptix
(Post 1402293)
Don't run a new pump.
But you have to promise to post about it when something goes wrong so you can provide a newer case study for the next wave of forum members. for science |
Originally Posted by Savington
(Post 1402354)
I think getting a BE pump from a good vendor is just as good as getting it directly from them. A vendor that ships in original packaging and doesn't muck with the pumps in-house, for instance.
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I got mine directly from Boundary, but Trackspeed is a reputable vendor you can trust. There's one I'm not so sure about whose name rhymes with "bad time" that has yielded mixed results. Some love and some hate them. Me? I'm just eating popcorn and sipping an ale.
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Originally Posted by patsmx5
(Post 1402218)
It is well documented that debris in the oil and not running a harmonic damper will result in a loss of oil pressure and bad things happening to the engine. On this forum the correct thing to say is a new forged gears oil pump is cheap insurance/why not/stock pumps suck. I think I've seen two threads this week of people having problems with aftermarket oil pumps (defects in manufacturing in both cases I believe) I've been amazingly lucky as I have spun several motors to 8,500-9,000 RPM with turbo/Supercharger/compound turbos, run high boost, and never had an oil pump failure ever. For a street driven car I give my car hell and have had no failure, no stuck relief valve, etc. That said if I ever build a new motor and get carried away and build what I'd like to build, I'm going to build a custom chain drive oil pump as that is a better design as the gears are no longer bending when the crank bends. This would be a lot of work though.
The question comes down to how much do you like insurance... are you willing to spend a some extra coin to reduce the chance of grenading your engine. If you like to be safe then go for it... but you may as well buy a better throttle body, race bearings, ATI / SM damper etc etc as well. There is a point you have to stop. How many shattered oil pump gears have there been? Anyone keen to take a shot at the total number of failures? What about throttle shaft failures? Melted pistons from bad tunes? Melted / bent valves? Failed rods? Failed bearings? I would guess that the bottom four items on that list would outweigh the top two by an order of magnitude or more... if not two. If I was building a $10k engine from scratch it would be a no brainer... put one in, budget isn't a concern. If I'm on a budget there are certain parts I'm willing to go without for other more important things, like dyno time or driver safety. Of course I haven't destroyed a oil pump yet... so my opinion on risk might change abruptly at any moment, but I like living on the ragged edge! |
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