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Old 01-03-2009, 06:57 PM   #1
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Default Are we allowed to bash noobs?

Because I just got warned for doing it. Has the policy changed recently?
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Old 01-03-2009, 07:12 PM   #2
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we should be allowed to bash idiots.
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Old 01-03-2009, 07:25 PM   #3
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I was pretty stupid the first day I went to school. But I learned.

Try to be at least a little tolerant of the first post or two and if the noobs dont get a clue or start sassing you back while the helpful few are still being helpful, then go right ahead and kick em in the nuts.

It's hard for me to come up with a good reason to ban someone for their first post being ignorant. Kids get excited and want to put a turbo on their ****. Once the boner goes down, they usually calm down a little. Plus I'm not powerful enough to ban, so...

Otherwise, see Joe Perez's post here:

https://www.miataturbo.net/forum/t29866-3/#post348384
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Old 01-03-2009, 07:40 PM   #4
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I just read Joe's post in the thread I got warned for. I need to write a response to it, because it's very clear that there is a serious misunderstanding as to what this forum was, is, and is becoming. I will do that, right after I get back from tuning a car.
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Old 01-03-2009, 08:24 PM   #5
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link it up dawg
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Old 01-03-2009, 08:24 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Perez
I'm just stunned. Saw some discussion about this debacle in the mod forum, and I can't believe what I am seeing here.

It wasn't 30 days ago that we had the "VIP" conversation, and I thought we all came to an understanding about certain things, like how to handle newbs who ask stupid questions yet do not display any other signs of doucebaggery.

Did everybody read SamNavy's first post in this thread? If not, go back and do that now. That's how things are supposed to be done in cases like this. He took the time to explain in clear language exactly what why the OP's first post was somewhat deficient, and how to go about improving things. patsmx5 made a useful (if terse) suggestion, and SloS was at least being sarcastic in a non-"go sodomize your grandfather to death with an iron cattle prod" kind of way. Even hustler, god bless him, managed to jump on the OP in a way that was relatively gentle and pretty damn funny.

That would have been enough.

But the rest of you clowns, WTF crawled up your vaginas and died?

18PSI and Sav, what are you trying to accomplish here? I hate to single you guys out because you've been here for a long time and I like you, but get over yourselves. I'm sorry that you had to be inconvenienced by someone who doesn't know as much about turbocharging cars as those of us who have been here for years. There's a reason that a lot of folks think MT is nothing but a hangout for flaming ********, and this kind of **** is the reason why.

Ok, so this guy has the word drift in his name. That needs to change. And his first post displayed a moderate degree of ignorance. But it's not like he came on here talking **** and trying to make trouble. Y'all could have made this a lot easier by just ignoring the situation and letting those with cooler heads work it out.
And you could have just ignored the thread completely and not made a mountain out of a molehill, Joe. That thread was DONE. The noob was noobish, we flamed him as we always do, he apologized, said he had done some reading and learned a lot, and we all commended him. At least two of us used the phrase "read and you'll do fine", and someone even gave intercooler pricing suggest. Y8s topped it off with a nice feel-good message about how all newb threads should go as well, and then FIVE HOURS later, you decided to pipe up.

And for what reason? That thread was a model of why hazing works. I couldn't write a better "great first n00b thread" thread if I tried.

This forum has had an influx of new members in the last few months, and that's great, but it's diluted the atmosphere here. This forum used to be full of build threads and awesome discussion and there were no noobs to haze. Suddenly there are noobs to haze, and suddenly the hazing is the problem?

No. That's bullshit, and there are a lot of people here who know it.

The problem is the noobs. We need to find a way to invite them to the forum, and the First Post section is an awesome way to do that. Get acclimated, have Sam give his lecture on location and signature, and have someone help them find the Useful Posts section and get them some reading material. The VAST majority of noobs seem to use that section, and that's great.

But there are a few idiots who refuse to look, and therein lies the problem. They post up with stupid questions in sections, and the noise to signal ratio goes to total ****.

The mods here seem to be supporting this, to be quite honest. I'll blow the elephant up, too: I can't see the mod forum here, but I'd guess Rick has been pressuring the mods to clean it up, grow the forum, and generate ad revenue. It was my worry when Rick bought this place, and it appears that it was a valid one.

So what do we do about this? And by We I mean the members who spend hours here every day (the mods and a bunch of the subscribers who have turbo cars, or are working on turbo cars, and one stupid ***** who none of us thought would ever get a turbo car). We need some way to bring new members in, acclimate them, but maintain the level of technical discussion that this forum is known for.

The mods think that nixing the hazing is the way to go, and I could not disagree more. The hazing goes away, the noobs flood the forum, and the subscribers leave. I guarantee that's what will happen.

There is a simple fix for this: Don't let new members post threads. It's ALWAYS bad. Let them post their intro thread, get a few posts under their belt, and then mabye a month after they sign up, give them the ability to post a build thread or ask questions. A month or two is enough time for them to find the FAQs and stickys, read them all, and educate themselves. It produces good, educated members, the kind of people who will stick around and make this place bigger and better. It will also TOTALLY eliminate all but the most deserved hazing: No more noobs posting dumb threads, no more hazing. Simple as that. If a noob decides to hijack someone else's thread, without posting in the Useful Posts section, don't let the hazing happen: DELETE THE DAMN POST. PM them, tell them that their question is answered in the stickies and they need to read them before posting in the main forums.

I want to see this place grow and prosper, but if it comes at the cost of what attracted me to this forum in the first place, then **** it. You guys have the ball, and if you want to throw it towards growth at all costs, then go for it. It's your bed you are shitting in.

Cliffsnotes: This place is getting shitty, and requiring new members to wait 30-60 days before making new threads would help a lot.
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Old 01-03-2009, 08:33 PM   #7
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i agree with Sav 100% this place has changed a ton from when i first joined. when i first joined, i talked smack to a mod i think, and got hazed greatly for it. if you can take it, stay. if not, we wont miss you.
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Old 01-03-2009, 08:45 PM   #8
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+1 to most of what sav said. I don't completely agree with his solution. However, I have no other ideas. And I do believe his approach, for the most part, would help. So would the mods getting a little stricter. This forum has more BS and less tech every day. FACT. I hate it.

In my eyes, there are two solutions. Maybe three.

1) Get all the forum members up to speed/mature enough to guide the newbs (ie-not haze them at first and give them a chance no matter what they post at first)

2) Not let newbs post for a while after signing up. I'm not sure that's the best approach either.

Choice one is the best approach IMO. We don't need 20 people making fun of the newb right off the bat. As Joe said, give them a chance, and if they get an attitude still and just refuse to listen, then let the bashing begin. But not before.
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Old 01-03-2009, 09:01 PM   #9
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we have a BS section. if a tech thread gets BS, a mod should move it. but we still have members that have been on here for a long time and STILL can't post in the right damn section.
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Old 01-03-2009, 09:01 PM   #10
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ok so I agree that noobs who are out of line (willingly post stupid questions in stupid places, etc) should be schooled one way or another.

the biggest issue I had with that miata_dr1ft guy's thread was that there were cries for banning before he even had a third post.

next time, I will try to keep a closer eye on the situation and try to maintain some decorum and noob behavior.

part of this issue this time I think is that a lot of us were just plain not around.

which is why I think the warning system is a decent idea. use it. warn the **** out of the stupid noobs! maybe one of the supers/admins can correct me, but I think a sufficient number of warnings results in a temp ban, no?
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Old 01-03-2009, 09:11 PM   #11
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I'm kinda curious about why certain threads are left standing. Often, either VIA PM or VIA A POST IN THE THREAD recommend to NOOBs who've dug a big hole to PM a moderator and ask them to delete a thread so they can start over. I know a few have done just that, and come back a week later with an appropriate first thread... it really works out. The thread is gone before the bashing can take place, the NOOB is on board with the program, the forum is cleaned up... everybody wins.

If the moderators see a thread like this generating, JUST DELETE IT, and send a nice warm&fuzzy PM to the guy explaining the philosophy of this forum in a politically correct moderator fashion so the guy feels welcome and knows we're here to help if he'll meet us halfway.

I'd be more than happy to write up something appropriate... it'd start like this:

"Hey, welcome to the forum, I'm your friendly moderator. You're probably wondering why your thread got deleted..."

And it ends with:
"... so that's the kind of ship we run around here. You won't find a more comprehensive and factual collection of Miata turbo stuff anywhere, so look around, read a lot, don't forget the search function, fill in your signature and the basics of your profile information. Take your time with creating your first post in the Meet&Greet section... it's how everybody will know you, and first impressions are important, even online. WELCOME!"
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Old 01-03-2009, 09:21 PM   #12
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The noob did seem blind-sided. He really had no idea what he did wrong.
I believe it's ok to be harsh if some direction is given as well.

That could have gone much worse if the noob had taken more offense. He wouldn't have known why everybody was mad at him and would have left or gotten banned.

But he seems to be a good kid, and seems to be learning.

Idea:
This site uses cookies. Newbs should have a certain few special pages they have to at least visit before being able to post or start a thread. A curriculum. If they don't have the cookies, they don't get to post. And they don't get to start a thread until so many cookies and posts are completed. Aftet 15 or so posts the cookies thing goes inactive.

Ideas?

Edit: And Samnavy's idea on cleaning up the threads and a warning letter is great, too.
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Old 01-03-2009, 10:32 PM   #13
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This placed has changed a shitload over the years. I remember back in Philip's days, members had a hard time not getting banned, let alone the noobs.

I think its great this place has grown so much, lots of new ideas, lots of new rides, lots more potential.

I can only speak for myself when I say this;

If I end up in a bullshit, makes no sense type thread....I click back. I don't offer up any more time on reading **** posts, let alone replying to them. I would say I only post to about half of what I read. Lots and lots of junk if you look around or pull up common searches.

However, if you've been here long enough then you know how to stay out of the bullshit if you want. I think some people definitely feel the need to rise up and stand tall via the internet and speak their point. Even if the kid is a shitbag, why even dignify a response?

If everyone here with a brain sat back and let noobish threads have a week or so without jumping in with your chests sticking out, you'd probably be surprised. Say a new guy makes a thread about something, nobody responds for x amount of time (with exception to noobs), thus giving the OP some time to maybe search, or at least sift through the forums and possibly find his own answer. Maybe he will go off and start another 10 threads, who knows. In that case, a simple "click be gone" and move on with your day.

I don't know. I usually laugh at some of the older members on here when I see them go sooo far out of their way to talk ****. Its all good, not my problem, I usually don't make it too far into the post anyhow. Hopefully all this works out, cause there definitely are some older guys around that haven't posted in awhile. Newb takeover 09' eat your *** out.

Vash-
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Old 01-03-2009, 10:34 PM   #14
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A lot of the suggestions that have been offered in the past all require the mods or Rick to do something about the noobs. While it may seem easy enough to change the vB code to do this and do that or have the mods edit posts/warn people, I don't see it happening. Not that the Mods or Rick can't handle it, but they all have a lot to do already. They also don't contribute to the great content as much when they are babysitting.

Why not just ignore stupid posts. If a noob ask something that they should of searched for ignore them. When their thread gets a bunch or views but no posts I'm sure they will either figure it out or leave. The noise to signal ratio increases when everyone and their dog tells some noob something irrelevant. Everytime I click "New Posts" and some noob thread has 20 posts in it I have to read to see if something good came out of it. If I see a noob post and read it once then it never comes up again I don't read as much crap.

The great part of this idea is that it can start right now. Takes no effort on Rick's parts. Takes no effort on any of the Mods' part.

cliff notes: ignore stupid posts
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Old 01-03-2009, 10:46 PM   #15
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There's a welcome email that goes to every new members. Highlight the threads they should read, in particular how this forum operates w/r/t noobs. If they don't bother to read up before posting their threads, BAN. Let them try again...

There is an plugin that will force people to read a certain post/thread upon their arrival to the forum. Put it in place, they have to click 'I agree' before continuing. Then one of the following...

A) Allow noobs to only post in Welcome Forum until they have 10-15 posts, or a 5 day limit before posting anywhere else. This will force them to absorb some of the information here and refrain from making dumbass posts. After that, they can do whatever. If they start stupid threads, temp BAN and a reminder of the forum rules.

B) Allow noobs unrestricted posting, as it happens now. If they start stupid threads, permanent BAN.

People who lack reading comprehension skills shouldn't be putting a turbo on their car anyway, and the community doesn't need to hold their hand for basic Q&A.

Nothing wrong with a site that has rules, and following them shouldn't really be an issue.
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Old 01-03-2009, 11:01 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jsisco View Post
...
cliff notes: ignore stupid posts
because the hazing also increases the signal:noise ratio. Seems to me a mod is usually in with an instructional post soon enough.
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Old 01-03-2009, 11:11 PM   #17
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I feel your pain Sav. I have even told this to Scott and Tom when chatting with them over GTalk. I find myself visiting this site less and less. I can't formulate a reason as well as you did, but I know I can tell the change and I personally don't like it. Luckily, I have been here long enough and have met/talked with many of the members here that are knowledgable that I can just shoot them an IM or call them when I want to bounce some idieas around about my latest project.

This forum is becoming like every other forum on the net. Starting to get touchy feely like M.net. I predict that there will be a wine and cheese section with in the next year.
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Old 01-03-2009, 11:14 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m2cupcar View Post
because the hazing also increases the signal:noise ratio. Seems to me a mod is usually in with an instructional post soon enough.

No, it's a shitty idea and it caters to the stupidest members of this site, not the people who contribute time, experience, intelligence, and MONEY.

Again, it's like letting your dog **** on your couch. It's not acceptable. Your idea is just to ignore it and hope he stops doing it; my idea is to not let the dog on the couch in the first place. Obviously scolding the dog isn't working, but I think ignoring it is a great way to dilute the forum so badly that it starts to drive experienced members away.
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Old 01-03-2009, 11:15 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by samnavy View Post
I'm kinda curious about why certain threads are left standing. Often, either VIA PM or VIA A POST IN THE THREAD recommend to NOOBs who've dug a big hole to PM a moderator and ask them to delete a thread so they can start over. I know a few have done just that, and come back a week later with an appropriate first thread... it really works out. The thread is gone before the bashing can take place, the NOOB is on board with the program, the forum is cleaned up... everybody wins.

If the moderators see a thread like this generating, JUST DELETE IT, and send a nice warm&fuzzy PM to the guy explaining the philosophy of this forum in a politically correct moderator fashion so the guy feels welcome and knows we're here to help if he'll meet us halfway.

I'd be more than happy to write up something appropriate... it'd start like this:

"Hey, welcome to the forum, I'm your friendly moderator. You're probably wondering why your thread got deleted..."

And it ends with:
"... so that's the kind of ship we run around here. You won't find a more comprehensive and factual collection of Miata turbo stuff anywhere, so look around, read a lot, don't forget the search function, fill in your signature and the basics of your profile information. Take your time with creating your first post in the Meet&Greet section... it's how everybody will know you, and first impressions are important, even online. WELCOME!"
+1 to all of this. Again, if the threads are never seen, nobody gets bashed and everyone is happy.
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Old 01-03-2009, 11:17 PM   #20
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In hindsight I do think he got overly hazed. I think it has become stylish on this site to call for someone's ban humorously ( I include myself in this crowd). A lot of those cries for banning are probably not all that serious. It probably comes down to the anonymity of the internet. I'm sure even the harshest noob critics would be more tolerant and helpful in person.

Using the warning function is definitely the better option. To be honest I never even notice the button there on the bottom left of a post. Maybe if members had some threat of reprimand for excessive and unnecessary calls for banning instead of legitimately using the warning function their would be less hazing and more weeding of truly unproductive members and posts. It's easy to say, "ban this retard" but I'd give a second thought as to whether I actually wanted to report someone's post. I and probably everyone would do it less often.

Maybe we need a written code of rules of posting and behavior that can be referred to to determine whether a noob (or anyone for that matter) deserves to have their post reported.
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