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OEM case. no improvement. Its a big pile of lying to the masses. I think they are kind of just delaying failure with stronger gears.
somewhat unrelated,here is a transmission meant for big power. 11.5" r&p. Even a world class manufacturer wont rate this as a race transmission. still call it a trans for Hi-hp street legal buggies. strong boxes aint cheap.
PS, I got to drive a car with this trans backed by 600 hp. It was glorious banging gears without a clutch.
Hello,
This thread popped up on Facebook, so I figure'd I'd share a bit from Walter Motorsports directly. This should paint a bit clearer of a picture of what they are working on, and hopefully answer some questions. In full disclosure, I don't formally work with them, but I do help them with some of the online stuff, and I'm running one of their gearboxes in my NC. This post is copied and pasted from a facebook post, and is not my words... I'm just helping to spread information... as he mentions below, they don't currently do much on the forums, so I'm trying to fill that gap a bit.
We have been pro and amateur racing for going on 9 years now with a decade of automotive/performance related experience before that. I started really young and it’s all I’ve ever done. We aren’t grass roots. Kurt, the trans builder, has a similar passion but different education path. Chemistry and geology is his education path and mine was an automotive technology degree and a Motorsports vehicle technology degree. Both of us have a significant amount of self taught and formally taught engineering as well.
In pro racing we keep to ourselves and only about half way through last year we started getting into the street car market seeing the massive void which is the reason why we don’t have concrete numbers.
We have been successfully addressing issues for road racing cars on slicks but most classes don’t allow for crazy horsepower so that is why we don’t release numbers because we have beta testers, who agreed to NDAs so public communications is prohibited because we all know how the internet can be with any amount of information. Good or bad
We want to be absolutely sure of what we claim. It is true we have luck with guys running 300+ hp with zero issues, but we want more time before we claim anything specific.
Case flex keeps getting thrown around, but there is a misconception with what it exactly is in dynamic situations. Same with what the case studs actually do and why they work, with a properly built box. We are writing a tech article that explains these things along with some of how we build transmissions that makes a difference on strength itself. Sorry for not explaining here. It’s a long write up.
We are a two man show that are slammed with work load so tech info is released as we can. We beg for patience on these topics and we are doing the best we can, but we aren’t going to rush anything just to ease troubled minds. We want to stand by what we do and say. Period.
We have goals of the 5 speed handling 350hp. Goals. That is not a claim. Claims and goals seems to have been interchangeable for some reason.
We have other tricks up our sleeve if the stage 2 units don’t reach our goals which we dont expect the stage 2 to hold 350. We are also trying to do all of this while keeping it economical. Yea we can make a 5 speed handle whatever power you want, but we don’t think we would sell many if the final version costs over 2k. We are trying to keep everything under $1,500-$1,700 final version reliably handling 350hp. That is our goal. We have demand at that goal and demand at that price point.
We are also developing other transmissions for other makes and models, on top of engine building, car restorations, race car builds, and whatever else we do, so keep that in mind and be patient on timeframes. The best is to follow our business page and check our website for updates.
Someone mentioned calling, please do. Maybe one or two people and they can relay the info. If the entire forum calls, we won’t get much done in the shop lol. We are doing our best to relay info and data results as we can.
I also encourage you to check out the tech section on their website. This and their facebook page is the primary place they post tech articles, and will be the first place data is posted as it comes back and becomes publicly available.
I'm glad to answer any questions I can, as long as you don't expect me to give you horsepower rating numbers.
If they can make a 5 speed handle whatever power users want for 2k, they'd actually sell a solid number of them. That's still much cheaper than the BMW swap afaik. It would have to be proven before folks would shell out that much for something though and that's where it might have trouble getting off the ground. Lots of track testing from folks well known in the community would be a solid way to get there quickly.
If they can make a 5 speed handle whatever power users want for 2k, they'd actually sell a solid number of them. That's still much cheaper than the BMW swap afaik. It would have to be proven before folks would shell out that much for something though and that's where it might have trouble getting off the ground. Lots of track testing from folks well known in the community would be a solid way to get there quickly.
Thats where they are at right now. They've been building these gearbox for 170hp cup cars for years, but they've only had them in higher HP cars for a few months now. Early signs look good, but until we have a sufficient amount of data from multiple cars, AND have received the gearboxes back to tear them down after they have been driven hard, they wont release any official HP ratings.
The market has had a lot of BS claims, with no evidence or proof to back them up in the past. We aren't trying to be one of those shops. When Walter Motorsports does release numbers, they will likely be on the conservative side, but they will stand behind those numbers, because they will have the data to back it up.
The transmissions are for sale right now, and as I said, I have one in my 2.5 swapped NC, but I wont be testing it higher HP until my supercharger project is ready to install.... as that gets closer you will start seeing a lot more of me around these forums. This will be my first FI car, so I have a lot to learn still, and I'm going a less than conventional route to get there.
Due to the increasing request for info, they are expanding the beta test group. Testers have to agree to non disclosure agreements and keep all data, processes, info, etc between Walter Motorsports and the tester themselves to keep data in house. Discounts on transmissions and parts that we sell is the reimbursement for testing. We can approve or reject testing applicants at any reason or none at all.
I bought the more expensive 6 Speed BMW swap and it is probably closer to four grand all all in but will probably good be good till 500 or more horsepower.
If it really is a <2,000$ ticket to reliably handling 350whp, I'm concerned it'll be a rewrite of Kraken, where a small shop has more demand for high-quality parts than they can stand to produce.
If they can build a 5-speed for $2k that handles "whatever power you want" then everyone should buy that and we'll start recommending them to customers. Seems like a no-brainer for almost any Miata build.
I'm having a hard time picturing a $2k Miata rebuilt trans handling 500+whp. I appreciate that they are not releasing official power ratings at this point though.
__________________ KPower Industries
Home of the original KMiata Swap
I would be happy to do some beta testing, although I am leaning pretty heavily towards a getrag or zf swap at this point. I am most likely making around 350 at the wheels with some timing pulled to keep the tranny lasting more than a few weeks, my car traps 120. I strip the teeth off the input shaft while in gear, done it 3 times already. I can swap a Miata trans in a few hours, but the next drag race is the 26th and 27th.
Happy to sign a non-disclosure agreement and keep quiet, done it before for folks here.
I would be happy to do some beta testing, although I am leaning pretty heavily towards a getrag or zf swap at this point. I am most likely making around 350 at the wheels with some timing pulled to keep the tranny lasting more than a few weeks, my car traps 120. I strip the teeth off the input shaft while in gear, done it 3 times already. I can swap a Miata trans in a few hours, but the next drag race is the 26th and 27th.
Happy to sign a non-disclosure agreement and keep quiet, done it before for folks here.
Thanks for the tag Vlad!
send them a message on Facebook or email via their website if you don't use Facebook. You sound like a good candidate
Thread was (and is) fine until y'all started speculating right after the guy specifically said not to
carry on
My comment, like KMiata's, was in response to this part of the statement.
We have other tricks up our sleeve if the stage 2 units don’t reach our goals which we dont expect the stage 2 to hold 350. We are also trying to do all of this while keeping it economical. Yea we can make a 5 speed handle whatever power you want, but we don’t think we would sell many if the final version costs over 2k. We are trying to keep everything under $1,500-$1,700 final version reliably handling 350hp. That is our goal. We have demand at that goal and demand at that price point.
To say that welllllll there may be something there even if they don't think there is.
You're right though. No use playing armchair expert and going through the coulda, woulda, shoulda's here.
Originally Posted by sonofthehill
I would be happy to do some beta testing, although I am leaning pretty heavily towards a getrag or zf swap at this point. I am most likely making around 350 at the wheels with some timing pulled to keep the tranny lasting more than a few weeks, my car traps 120. I strip the teeth off the input shaft while in gear, done it 3 times already. I can swap a Miata trans in a few hours, but the next drag race is the 26th and 27th.
Happy to sign a non-disclosure agreement and keep quiet, done it before for folks here.
Thanks for the tag Vlad!
Yeah, you'd be awesome for this.
Pat too actually though who knows what he's doing now... He's been playing with auto stuff for a while.
Originally Posted by Fireindc
Subbd. I found this to be very interesting as well.
Missed this! They certainly have a keen eye. I wonder if they do anything with the oil grooves on the stock 5 speeds to increase cooling capacity so to speak.
What's the term for this again...? Cautious optimism, eh?
Missed this! They certainly have a keen eye. I wonder if they do anything with the oil grooves on the stock 5 speeds to increase cooling capacity so to speak.
What's the term for this again...? Cautious optimism, eh?
Based on their website:
-Gearboxes are completely torn down, go through an extremely detailed qualification process, cleaned, and rebuilt, replacing seals, synchros, any failing gears/parts and are built with upgraded bearings.
-Modifications are done to improve oiling and cooling of problem areas.
-Machining is done to gear engagement teeth to improve gear engagement feel. Most race boxes get different engagement teeth timing to improve ability to shift for specific gears, so racing style and applications are important to disclose prior to rebuilds.
-Gear tooth machining to reduce temps, noise, and improve oil evacuation.
-Shift-bias modification for better shift feel and help to ensure proper gear engagement.
-Upgraded bearings to handle higher performance and higher speed applications.
-Gearboxes are built using hardened studs versus bolts. This provides a stronger and more reliable clamping force of the transmission case which results in maintained gear alignment and dynamics creating a stronger, higher power capacity transmission that will last longer.
-Cryo treated gears for up to double the gear strength. Not to be confused with double the horsepower capacity of the box itself, but in general, gear steel itself can have its strength almost doubled with cryogenic treatment depending on initial gear steel quality according to cryo machine manufactures and metallurgists.
-Partial break in on a bench dyno for verification.
Is it sonofthehill that is continually breaking 4th on track?
I remember a thread talking about getting hardened gearsets where someone came in and pictured a few of the several gearboxes he/she had ruined.
I specifically remember though that at his/her power level you didn't need to change into it badly it just went at the torque level he had.
If this wasn't sonofthehill whoever it was would be a perfect candidate also.
01-04-2019, 02:13 PM
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