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Another Transmission Option?
Saw this pop up on the MT facebook group.
https://walter-motorsports.com/shop?...ission-5-speed Shop advertises rebuilt 5 speeds that can take 300+ hp. I feel like I read similar things about quaife, no? Has anyone dealt with them? I'm just super curious about this option because a 5 speed set up to handle 300ish hp for 1250-1500 sounds almost too good to be true. I wonder if they guarantee their work... |
Interesting stuff, I've noticed some of what they talk about in the NB 5 speed I'm rebuilding. Though, it seems all of their strength upgrading is in going to hardened studs to replace the bolts that hold the whole trans together. I am dubious as to how much strength those really add. But then again, they are only claiming a ~30% increase, so that is maybe reasonable over stock.
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This looks amazing but sounds way too good to be true. As I understand it the main weak point in the 5 speed trans is the lack of bracing on the casing not holding up to twisting and torsional loads under high torque output. It seems the only way this is directly addressed is using studs instead of bolts... I doubt the resolution is that easy.
I believe the Quaife was just an upgraded gear set and didn't really address the weakness in the casing. We'd need someone like Sav or Emilio to really put it through its paces. |
Subbed
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And nitrodann says you can run stock 6 speeds on the track at, what did he say, 360 horsepower without failing? Total bull. Claims are not worth a shit until you have backup. A sample size of a couple does not a solution make.
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OEM case. no improvement. Its a big pile of lying to the masses. I think they are kind of just delaying failure with stronger gears.
somewhat unrelated,here is a transmission meant for big power. 11.5" r&p. Even a world class manufacturer wont rate this as a race transmission. still call it a trans for Hi-hp street legal buggies. strong boxes aint cheap. PS, I got to drive a car with this trans backed by 600 hp. It was glorious banging gears without a clutch. https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...b4a18b6e25.jpg https://weddleindustries.com/products/1000165/1004528 |
Originally Posted by ryansmoneypit
(Post 1517408)
OEM case. no improvement. Its a big pile of lying to the masses.
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To be fair, most of the opinions on the cause of Miata 5 spd torque related failures are speculation. A specialist can identify the causes of failure that a non-specialist might miss. I have never seen any conclusive evidence that case flex is the sole factor in 5spd torque failures. Maybe it is.
Browsing through their site, I get the impression that he (they?) know what they are talking about. The claims of 300whp capacity for their stage 2 might be optimistic but my guess is that it does have a significantly raised capacity over an OEM rebuild. Curious to see what reports come in from the Miataverse after a few folks try these boxes. |
I will be keeping a close eye on this. Wonder if these guys would let one of our more reputable vendors test one of these.
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Originally Posted by Ted75zcar
(Post 1517448)
I will be keeping a close eye on this. Wonder if these guys would let one of our more reputable vendors test one of these.
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Originally Posted by ridethecliche
(Post 1517380)
Saw this pop up on the MT facebook group.
https://walter-motorsports.com/shop?...ission-5-speed Shop advertises rebuilt 5 speeds that can take 300+ hp. |
Subbd. I found this to be very interesting as well.
https://walter-motorsports.com/techn...on-differences |
Originally Posted by Joe Perez
(Post 1517453)
Links to people who have run this gearbox on the track with high-output engines?
Show us the cars you guys run these in, the power they are making, and how they are using them. Also, curious (if their methods actually work) if they could further strengthen the 6-speed as well.... Looks like one of their product photos has one hanging around int he background. |
I might have to retract my statement a bit...
Thinking back to my VW days, Big turbos would spread the Transmission box open and allow the gears to shear, but the event left a lot of evidence. So, has anyone seen evidence of a 5 speed box cracking after a gear failure.? sheared mainshaft? less that round bearing bores? |
I think they do say they are working on 6 speed enhancements on the site. We need data. If they are marketing to this community, they should be at least lurking here.
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Since I started this thread, I might follow through and give them a call or drop them an email with a link to this thread to see if they'd like to chime in. I'm sure they want to protect their product and whatever innovation they've done, but it would be neat if they were able to give more info and/or evidence about the trans surviving with the added power.
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They have been fairly forth coming on information on Facebook posts I've seen about their reasoning for their claims. They do have a degreed metallurgist on staff according to their post. They supposedly have been testing a few of their 300whp capable units on multiple cars, but nothing has been definitively shown yet. While I don't for see needing a 300whp capable 5 speed anytime soon, I am interested in the stud kit for a future 5 speed rebuild just for peace of mind.
They do work on 6 speeds for the NC's too. Not sure how much translates to the NB1/NB2/MSM variations. They have a few good options for improving their strength as well. I believe they are currently the ones building all the transmissions for the Spec MX-5 series (rental NCs) |
Even if it did hold 300 horsepower, 300 horsepower is not enough.
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I'm more interested if they could make a 6 speed reliable at 400whp and the kind of torques EFR builds push.
At their prices for 5 speed, I feel like most would just find a 6 speed + MR Shifter + gears for 300whp reliable. |
Originally Posted by themonkeyman
(Post 1517452)
Given the abundant supply of dirt cheap 5sp boxes it would be interesting to see side by side torture tests to failure😈 |
Originally Posted by ryansmoneypit
(Post 1517408)
OEM case. no improvement. Its a big pile of lying to the masses. I think they are kind of just delaying failure with stronger gears.
somewhat unrelated,here is a transmission meant for big power. 11.5" r&p. Even a world class manufacturer wont rate this as a race transmission. still call it a trans for Hi-hp street legal buggies. strong boxes aint cheap. PS, I got to drive a car with this trans backed by 600 hp. It was glorious banging gears without a clutch. https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...b4a18b6e25.jpg https://weddleindustries.com/products/1000165/1004528 |
Originally Posted by sixshooter
(Post 1517495)
Even if it did hold 300 horsepower, 300 horsepower is not enough.
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Originally Posted by huesmann
(Post 1517545)
Has anyone ever fitted a transaxle to a Miata without significant cutting?
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Statement from Walter Motorsports
Hello,
This thread popped up on Facebook, so I figure'd I'd share a bit from Walter Motorsports directly. This should paint a bit clearer of a picture of what they are working on, and hopefully answer some questions. In full disclosure, I don't formally work with them, but I do help them with some of the online stuff, and I'm running one of their gearboxes in my NC. This post is copied and pasted from a facebook post, and is not my words... I'm just helping to spread information... as he mentions below, they don't currently do much on the forums, so I'm trying to fill that gap a bit. We have been pro and amateur racing for going on 9 years now with a decade of automotive/performance related experience before that. I started really young and it’s all I’ve ever done. We aren’t grass roots. Kurt, the trans builder, has a similar passion but different education path. Chemistry and geology is his education path and mine was an automotive technology degree and a Motorsports vehicle technology degree. Both of us have a significant amount of self taught and formally taught engineering as well. In pro racing we keep to ourselves and only about half way through last year we started getting into the street car market seeing the massive void which is the reason why we don’t have concrete numbers. We have been successfully addressing issues for road racing cars on slicks but most classes don’t allow for crazy horsepower so that is why we don’t release numbers because we have beta testers, who agreed to NDAs so public communications is prohibited because we all know how the internet can be with any amount of information. Good or bad We want to be absolutely sure of what we claim. It is true we have luck with guys running 300+ hp with zero issues, but we want more time before we claim anything specific. Case flex keeps getting thrown around, but there is a misconception with what it exactly is in dynamic situations. Same with what the case studs actually do and why they work, with a properly built box. We are writing a tech article that explains these things along with some of how we build transmissions that makes a difference on strength itself. Sorry for not explaining here. It’s a long write up. We are a two man show that are slammed with work load so tech info is released as we can. We beg for patience on these topics and we are doing the best we can, but we aren’t going to rush anything just to ease troubled minds. We want to stand by what we do and say. Period. We have goals of the 5 speed handling 350hp. Goals. That is not a claim. Claims and goals seems to have been interchangeable for some reason. We have other tricks up our sleeve if the stage 2 units don’t reach our goals which we dont expect the stage 2 to hold 350. We are also trying to do all of this while keeping it economical. Yea we can make a 5 speed handle whatever power you want, but we don’t think we would sell many if the final version costs over 2k. We are trying to keep everything under $1,500-$1,700 final version reliably handling 350hp. That is our goal. We have demand at that goal and demand at that price point. We are also developing other transmissions for other makes and models, on top of engine building, car restorations, race car builds, and whatever else we do, so keep that in mind and be patient on timeframes. The best is to follow our business page and check our website for updates. Someone mentioned calling, please do. Maybe one or two people and they can relay the info. If the entire forum calls, we won’t get much done in the shop lol. We are doing our best to relay info and data results as we can. I also encourage you to check out the tech section on their website. This and their facebook page is the primary place they post tech articles, and will be the first place data is posted as it comes back and becomes publicly available. I'm glad to answer any questions I can, as long as you don't expect me to give you horsepower rating numbers. |
If they can make a 5 speed handle whatever power users want for 2k, they'd actually sell a solid number of them. That's still much cheaper than the BMW swap afaik. It would have to be proven before folks would shell out that much for something though and that's where it might have trouble getting off the ground. Lots of track testing from folks well known in the community would be a solid way to get there quickly.
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Originally Posted by ridethecliche
(Post 1518170)
If they can make a 5 speed handle whatever power users want for 2k, they'd actually sell a solid number of them. That's still much cheaper than the BMW swap afaik. It would have to be proven before folks would shell out that much for something though and that's where it might have trouble getting off the ground. Lots of track testing from folks well known in the community would be a solid way to get there quickly.
The market has had a lot of BS claims, with no evidence or proof to back them up in the past. We aren't trying to be one of those shops. When Walter Motorsports does release numbers, they will likely be on the conservative side, but they will stand behind those numbers, because they will have the data to back it up. The transmissions are for sale right now, and as I said, I have one in my 2.5 swapped NC, but I wont be testing it higher HP until my supercharger project is ready to install.... as that gets closer you will start seeing a lot more of me around these forums. This will be my first FI car, so I have a lot to learn still, and I'm going a less than conventional route to get there. Due to the increasing request for info, they are expanding the beta test group. Testers have to agree to non disclosure agreements and keep all data, processes, info, etc between Walter Motorsports and the tester themselves to keep data in house. Discounts on transmissions and parts that we sell is the reimbursement for testing. We can approve or reject testing applicants at any reason or none at all. |
@sonofthehill here's your perfect opportunity
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I bought the more expensive 6 Speed BMW swap and it is probably closer to four grand all all in but will probably good be good till 500 or more horsepower.
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If it really is a <2,000$ ticket to reliably handling 350whp, I'm concerned it'll be a rewrite of Kraken, where a small shop has more demand for high-quality parts than they can stand to produce.
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not enough speculation. let's speculate even harder.
UNDER $500 AND PROVEN TO HANDLE 600WHP TAKING ORDERS NAO, PM ridethecliche and WigglingWaffles to claim yours today |
Originally Posted by 18psi
(Post 1518207)
not enough speculation. let's speculate even harder.
UNDER $500 AND PROVEN TO HANDLE 600WHP TAKING ORDERS NAO, PM ridethecliche and WigglingWaffles to claim yours today |
If they can build a 5-speed for $2k that handles "whatever power you want" then everyone should buy that and we'll start recommending them to customers. Seems like a no-brainer for almost any Miata build.
I'm having a hard time picturing a $2k Miata rebuilt trans handling 500+whp. I appreciate that they are not releasing official power ratings at this point though. |
Originally Posted by 18psi
(Post 1518207)
not enough speculation. let's speculate even harder.
UNDER $500 AND PROVEN TO HANDLE 600WHP TAKING ORDERS NAO, PM ridethecliche and WigglingWaffles to claim yours today Reached out to the shop who made the claims about the product with a link to the thread. The shop or someone representing them (kinda) stepped in to post. Isn't that the way this is supposed to work or am I missing something? |
Thread was (and is) fine until y'all started speculating right after the guy specifically said not to :)
carry on |
I would be happy to do some beta testing, although I am leaning pretty heavily towards a getrag or zf swap at this point. I am most likely making around 350 at the wheels with some timing pulled to keep the tranny lasting more than a few weeks, my car traps 120. I strip the teeth off the input shaft while in gear, done it 3 times already. I can swap a Miata trans in a few hours, but the next drag race is the 26th and 27th.
Happy to sign a non-disclosure agreement and keep quiet, done it before for folks here. Thanks for the tag Vlad! |
Originally Posted by sonofthehill
(Post 1518222)
I would be happy to do some beta testing, although I am leaning pretty heavily towards a getrag or zf swap at this point. I am most likely making around 350 at the wheels with some timing pulled to keep the tranny lasting more than a few weeks, my car traps 120. I strip the teeth off the input shaft while in gear, done it 3 times already. I can swap a Miata trans in a few hours, but the next drag race is the 26th and 27th.
Happy to sign a non-disclosure agreement and keep quiet, done it before for folks here. Thanks for the tag Vlad! |
Originally Posted by 18psi
(Post 1518218)
Thread was (and is) fine until y'all started speculating right after the guy specifically said not to :)
carry on We have other tricks up our sleeve if the stage 2 units don’t reach our goals which we dont expect the stage 2 to hold 350. We are also trying to do all of this while keeping it economical. Yea we can make a 5 speed handle whatever power you want, but we don’t think we would sell many if the final version costs over 2k. We are trying to keep everything under $1,500-$1,700 final version reliably handling 350hp. That is our goal. We have demand at that goal and demand at that price point. You're right though. No use playing armchair expert and going through the coulda, woulda, shoulda's here.
Originally Posted by sonofthehill
(Post 1518222)
I would be happy to do some beta testing, although I am leaning pretty heavily towards a getrag or zf swap at this point. I am most likely making around 350 at the wheels with some timing pulled to keep the tranny lasting more than a few weeks, my car traps 120. I strip the teeth off the input shaft while in gear, done it 3 times already. I can swap a Miata trans in a few hours, but the next drag race is the 26th and 27th.
Happy to sign a non-disclosure agreement and keep quiet, done it before for folks here. Thanks for the tag Vlad! Pat too actually though who knows what he's doing now... He's been playing with auto stuff for a while.
Originally Posted by Fireindc
(Post 1517454)
Subbd. I found this to be very interesting as well.
https://walter-motorsports.com/techn...on-differences What's the term for this again...? Cautious optimism, eh? |
Originally Posted by ridethecliche
(Post 1518231)
Missed this! They certainly have a keen eye. I wonder if they do anything with the oil grooves on the stock 5 speeds to increase cooling capacity so to speak.
What's the term for this again...? Cautious optimism, eh? -Gearboxes are completely torn down, go through an extremely detailed qualification process, cleaned, and rebuilt, replacing seals, synchros, any failing gears/parts and are built with upgraded bearings. -Modifications are done to improve oiling and cooling of problem areas. -Machining is done to gear engagement teeth to improve gear engagement feel. Most race boxes get different engagement teeth timing to improve ability to shift for specific gears, so racing style and applications are important to disclose prior to rebuilds. -Gear tooth machining to reduce temps, noise, and improve oil evacuation. -Shift-bias modification for better shift feel and help to ensure proper gear engagement. -Upgraded bearings to handle higher performance and higher speed applications. -Gearboxes are built using hardened studs versus bolts. This provides a stronger and more reliable clamping force of the transmission case which results in maintained gear alignment and dynamics creating a stronger, higher power capacity transmission that will last longer. -Cryo treated gears for up to double the gear strength. Not to be confused with double the horsepower capacity of the box itself, but in general, gear steel itself can have its strength almost doubled with cryogenic treatment depending on initial gear steel quality according to cryo machine manufactures and metallurgists. -Partial break in on a bench dyno for verification. |
Is it sonofthehill that is continually breaking 4th on track?
I remember a thread talking about getting hardened gearsets where someone came in and pictured a few of the several gearboxes he/she had ruined. I specifically remember though that at his/her power level you didn't need to change into it badly it just went at the torque level he had. If this wasn't sonofthehill whoever it was would be a perfect candidate also. |
Originally Posted by rrjwilson
(Post 1518267)
Is it sonofthehill that is continually breaking 4th on track?
I remember a thread talking about getting hardened gearsets where someone came in and pictured a few of the several gearboxes he/she had ruined. I specifically remember though that at his/her power level you didn't need to change into it badly it just went at the torque level he had. If this wasn't sonofthehill whoever it was would be a perfect candidate also. |
Originally Posted by themonkeyman
(Post 1518268)
As someone keenly interested in this topic and home-brewing strengthening options, Ive been searching fruitlessly for pics of internals from failed 5sp boxes. Would love to see some.
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No, I have never broken 4th in any of my 5 speeds. I have not broken any at the track yet either, always on the street, in 2nd, 3rd and 5th.
Here is my most recent carnage, I didn't open this one but this is definitely an input shaft tooth, matched it to a different one. I did manage to keep the input shaft from moving forward and sheered the whole tooth(I think), I had only sheered approximately 90% of the teeth previously. I will email them today, I have an unusually busy day though. https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...3308153c23.jpg https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...4cd7dbe8dc.jpg |
Technically, you can reduce the likelihood of breaking an input shaft tooth by 50% simply by removing every other tooth.
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I see no fault in that logic :naughty:
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:rofl:
Except that even with only one tooth removed, the car becomes almost completely undrivable. |
Update for AZ6 users:
Contacted Walter Motorsports. Asked if they were working on anything for the AZ6. They said it was on their to do list but they are busy with 5spd stuff for SCCA racers. They weren't aware of the market for a beefier AZ6 so I shared some info and stats. They're interested so we're sending them a few boxes to evaluate and inspect. If anyone reading this has a complete AZ6 with sheared gear teeth, LMK. We need one for science. |
Originally Posted by emilio700
(Post 1523016)
Update for AZ6 users:
If anyone reading this has a complete AZ6 with sheared gear teeth, LMK. We need one for science. --Ian |
Originally Posted by codrus
(Post 1523055)
IIRC bbundy has about a dozen :)
--Ian |
Semi-unrelated: I dream of a 6 speed box that is a direct fit, can take 400+hp and cruise at 70mph around 3k rpms. Basically I'd like a beefed up factory 6 speed with a bit of a change to the gear ratios.
I don't need a box that strong and maybe I never will, but I say if you're gonna dream... Dream big. |
Originally Posted by 90LowNSlo
(Post 1523453)
Semi-unrelated: I dream of a 6 speed box that is a direct fit, can take 400+hp and cruise at 70mph around 3k rpms. Basically I'd like a beefed up factory 6 speed with a bit of a change to the gear ratios.
I don't need a box that strong and maybe I never will, but I say if you're gonna dream... Dream big. |
I emailed with them a few weeks ago. They said their biggest problem was being too busy and it's a 2 man operation. Hopefully I will hear from them soon, as I keep seeing good deals on getrag 260's locally.
More input shaft carnage for your viewing pleasure. https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...efef1e11c2.jpg https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.mia...9ba7999985.jpg This is why I can't seem to run full power in any gear but 4th. This gear transmits power to the rest of the gears. It would be nice to have a Miata transmission in the long run, that way I don't have to figure out a neutral safety switch and speedo. |
I wonder if the cryogenic treatment would add strength to this piece. I'v read a lot of serious people who swear by it, but also race with a friend who is a metallurgist for Ford Motors, who says they had tested it years ago, and no benefit; said if it worked, they'd be using it. If it does work, this is exactly the kind of parts I'd want to treat.
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Originally Posted by tomrev
(Post 1523493)
I wonder if the cryogenic treatment would add strength to this piece. I'v read a lot of serious people who swear by it, but also race with a friend who is a metallurgist for Ford Motors, who says they had tested it years ago, and no benefit; said if it worked, they'd be using it. If it does work, this is exactly the kind of parts I'd want to treat.
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Originally Posted by 90LowNSlo
(Post 1523453)
Semi-unrelated: I dream of a 6 speed box that is a direct fit, can take 400+hp and cruise at 70mph around 3k rpms. Basically I'd like a beefed up factory 6 speed with a bit of a change to the gear ratios.
I don't need a box that strong and maybe I never will, but I say if you're gonna dream... Dream big. |
Originally Posted by sonofthehill
(Post 1523492)
More input shaft carnage for your viewing pleasure.
This is why I can't seem to run full power in any gear but 4th. This gear transmits power to the rest of the gears. |
Originally Posted by emilio700
(Post 1523601)
Do you have a complete, intact AZ6 with broken gears (other than input shaft) you can donate? Email us if you do info@949racing.com
@1993z32 might be able to donate to the cause? |
Originally Posted by sixshooter
(Post 1523534)
It's not that it doesn't work. Cryo treatment makes some difference but "cryo cycling" with multiple slow cycles yields a great benefit. But it takes time (almost a week) and money Ford probably didn't value. I've seen everything from cutting tools used to make eyeglasses to fleet vehicle brakes tested and the differences in life were substantial. Last time I was at the facility it was expanding because of increased volume of orders.
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I don't have any of my boxes left.
Side note, if anyone is planning on beefing up the 6-speed in any way, the synchro rings, especially 4th, need to be welded to the gears. Due to the direction of the helical cut the ring separates from the gear (they are press fit) and the trans proceeds to attempt to go into 3rd and 4th at the same time. This was the only reason I lost 2 6-speeds at 350wtq, no broken teeth or anything else. (And this happened within a few pulls). Note that I was using an unsprung twin disc, some people attribute the failures to the aggressiveness of the clutch, but it's a weak point regardless. Pictures and more in depth description of failures: https://www.thecarpassionchannel.com/trans-fail
Originally Posted by cpierr03
(Post 1523629)
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Sorry Emilio, I only have 5 speed boxes. All of my 5 speeds have sheared teeth on the input shaft in a similar manner. This could seem like a failure in 1st, 2nd, 3rd, or 5th, but it was always the input shaft in my case. I was going to scrap the 2 complete junk boxes I have, but those guys suggested they might still have some core value.
As I understand cryo treatment it helps more with wear characteristics than with tensile strength, not sure what the solution is. Greg, didn't you bury those 6 speeds in your yard or something, can't you dig one up :dunno: ;) |
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