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Old 02-22-2009, 12:15 PM   #1
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Default Anyone done NASA Time Trial?

I've been thinking about entering the Great Lakes region TT championship this year ever since my single-seater plans got put on hold due to the uncertain economy (not a good time to spend yada yada).

The big plus being less chances of body damage as there's no wheel-to-wheel racing going on.

Obviously I want to develop the car over the season as I go, but I'm almost entirely certain that a cage (as opposed to just rollbar) will be first priority. I am planning to stay at current power levels to keep engine cost reasonable (I estimate close to 200 whp).

The first thing I noticed is that the rules are unnecessarily complex in terms of classing. My concern is I might get classed with the 400+ whp AWD cars like the AMS Evo and STi.

Anyone done the championship with a turbo miata? If yes, tips tricks etc on building to the limit of the class would be appreciated.
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Old 02-22-2009, 12:22 PM   #2
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Paging exzx3 or whatever. I'm going to run 1 or 2 events this season.
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Old 02-22-2009, 12:37 PM   #3
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Im looking to do this as well and have the same questions about classing.
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Old 02-22-2009, 12:56 PM   #4
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What's the question? I was the time trial director in NASA Texas last year? I think the rules work out pretty well right now. The turbo cars do definitely have an advantage right now. Especially if they have boost management that will let them hit their HP numbers early and stay there.
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Old 02-22-2009, 03:24 PM   #5
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The question is how does the classing favor or not favor a typical turbo miata. Does one run with the AWD cars which are most probably superior at the tracks I will run at (Mid-Ohio, Putnam and Gingerman).
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Old 02-22-2009, 04:06 PM   #6
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For most miatas, base class is TTE, unless a 1.6 car

Mazda Miata 1.6L TTF** 2182
Mazda Miata 1.8L ('94-'97) TTE 2293
Mazda Miata 1.8L ('99-'05) TTE 2299
Mazda Miata MX-5 ('06-'08) TTE* 2474
Mazda Miata MX-5 turbo ('05) TTE* 2529

A subaru, lets say wrx starts at
Subaru WRX STi ('04-'07)(AWD) TTB 3260

So, from the start there is a lot of room in mods to work with....he's already 3 classes above you.

This might be the easiest thing to do...

All of these cars MUST be assessed by the National TT Director for re-classification into a new TT Base Class!
Motor Swap, Aftermarket Forced Induction, Modified Turbo/Supercharger, Aftermarket Head(s), Increased
Number of Camshafts, Hybrid Engine, Ported Rotary motors, others (see TT Rules sections 6.4.1 and 6.4.2)
(e-mail the below information to the National TT Director at [email protected] to receive your new Base Class)


Above info is here...basically comes down to wt/hp and nothing else

Non-OEM, upgraded, or modified turbo, or supercharger: engine swap rules apply—all OEM
naturally aspirated vehicles that have been upgraded to forced induction and forced induction vehicles with an upgraded
or modified turbo or supercharger must be evaluated by the National TT Director on an individual basis for new
base classification based on chassis dynamometer testing and minimum competition weight as in 1) above and in Section
6.4.2 Dyno Testing Procedures. After re-classification, modification points will not be assessed for weight reduction or
engine. However, if the power output of the vehicle is later increased, the participant will have to get the vehicle
re-classified again.


As you add power suspension of course you are assessed points.

Now, there is a HP/Weight rule added this year for everyone, no just the above...this is a huge help. Each class has a max hp/wt ratio they can hit otherwise, they are reclassed regardless of their assessed points. I think this is good thing(coming from a class that is only judged on Wt/HP and a few select things)

TTA 8.70:1
TTB 10.25:1
TTC 12.00:1
TTD 14.25:1
TTE 16.50:1
TTF 19.50:1

Short answer, I think a turbo Miata is pretty damn competitive. We have 250hp miata here that smokes damn near anything in the SU race class.

The best thing is to run your number and see what class you end up in. See what other base cars are in the class and decidce whether you think you can hang with them.

Email greg with a list and he'd probably be gglad to let you know where you would be classed. I haven't kept up with the rules this year.

Last edited by rlogan; 02-22-2009 at 04:16 PM. Reason: added data
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Old 02-22-2009, 05:40 PM   #7
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****, looks like I have to run tta.
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Old 02-22-2009, 07:44 PM   #8
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Sure that's not T&A ?!?

We don't have Nasa running in the NW yet. There are a couple of club events though I hope to run in. Will be interesting to see how my car and my driving measures up. Looking at my lap times from a video, I'd have finished mid pack in a Time Attack tt held at the Mazda Pro Race weekend here last year.
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Old 02-22-2009, 07:48 PM   #9
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Default Time Trial Classifying for NASA

Here is an email from the National Director for NASA, Dr. Greg Greenbaum...

Hello Everyone,
I hope that your Winter break has been a good one. As most of you have seen, we were busy in November and December working on the TT and PT Rules for 2009. If you haven't seen them yet, please download a copy, as well as a copy of the 2009 TT Car Classification Form.
http://www.nasaproracing.com/rules/Time-Trial-Rules.pdf
http://www.nasaproracing.com/rules/T...ation-form.pdf
http://www.nasaproracing.com/rules/T...n-form-SUR.pdf
There have been changes to a few handfuls of individual cars' base classes, but the more substantial changes are those made to the modification points, No-Points Modifications, and the new Adjusted wt/hp limits put on each class. We have not switched to Dyno based classing of cars. Most cars will still use the base class from the table, and then add up modification points as usual. However, after that process is completed, the final test of whether a car will be legal to compete in the class that it "points out" to, will be a calculation of the "Adjusted wt/hp ratio" used for cars in TTS and TTU for their classing. This will mean that some cars that have benefitted in the past from having a much better wt/hp ratio than other cars in their class will either have to add weight, decrease power, or bump to a higher class. The only drivers that will be required to turn in Dyno sheets will still be those that have been re-classed based on Dyno testing and actual competition weight (motor swaps, modified/aftermarket forced induction, aftermarket heads, rotory porting); however, everyone will have to have an idea of the Dyno whp of their cars to ensure that they are legal under this final test.
The biggest change in the modification points is that ECU reflashes and chips are now a No-Points modification. However, all forced induction vehicles now take an additional +5 points in addition to any asterisks that they may have. The points and definitions have changed for aero mods as well. Lexan driver and front passenger side windows are no longer permitted in any class unless they were installed by the factory when the car was built. One other change is that the National TT Director (me) can now re-class any car by Dyno and actual weight. This will generally only benefit those that are taking a lot of points for power mods that are not yielding them significant increases in power. There are plenty of other changes that should be reviewed. All of them are listed in red text (and blue text for the changes in the base-classing table) to make them easier to find. Please review them now, and fill out a 2009 TT Car Classification Form. Please e-mail Shawn Meze or me if you have questions.

Greg's email is [email protected]

Classifying your car is based on alot more than HP to Weight ratio, so be sure and go through the entire classification form.

MAZDA Motorsports is working at developing a Spec Miata Forced Induction racing series. So please go out there and get your TT license, then a full race license and join the series!
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Old 02-22-2009, 10:15 PM   #10
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If I were ever to compete, it would more than likely be the NASA TTs.
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Old 02-22-2009, 11:32 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hustler View Post
****, looks like I have to run tta.
How much Hp do you have? More than likely you would be competitive.

If you have the HP to even stay close in the straights, you can smoke them in tight sections. In most TX tracks the cars are pretty equal. TWS is favorable to high HP cars just because of the long straight. MSR Cresson...anything is competitive there, about the same but slightly less so with Hallett and the new Eagles Canyon.
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Old 02-22-2009, 11:54 PM   #12
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rlogan and drgoodwrench, thanks for that info.

I have done the classing worksheet already but the part that confuses me is this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by rlogan View Post
All of these cars MUST be assessed by the National TT Director for re-classification into a new TT Base Class!
Motor Swap, Aftermarket Forced Induction, Modified Turbo/Supercharger, Aftermarket Head(s), Increased
Number of Camshafts, Hybrid Engine, Ported Rotary motors, others (see TT Rules sections 6.4.1 and 6.4.2)
(e-mail the below information to the National TT Director at [email protected] to receive your new Base Class)
What does "assess" mean? If it means I show up at the track for tech and then get classed, then that by itself would preclude "building to the limit of the class".

From the power/weight chart it looks like I will be in TTB or TTC depending on boost. That's not too bad considering the competition is stock STis or SRT4s in TTB, worst case. Looks promising so far.
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Old 02-23-2009, 12:14 AM   #13
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Nope, means you email greg and let him know exactly what changes have been made...and in all likelyhood, he will tell you to dyno it and use the wt/hp ratio to decide what class you are bumped to. You will have to factor in suspension as well, but a Miata will be competitive.
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Old 02-23-2009, 12:16 AM   #14
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Glad to hear about the forced induction series...that will attract a lot of the people that complain about the lack of power in spec miata (most of these people can't drive anyway) I race a big HP car and I still love running a SPEC miata.
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Old 02-23-2009, 12:55 AM   #15
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The complexity of some of this stuff is what keeps me from wanting to do it. That and I dont yet have a fast or competitive car. Most of this **** goes way over my head. I'll stick with HPDE for now.
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Old 02-23-2009, 02:55 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rlogan View Post
How much Hp do you have? More than likely you would be competitive.

If you have the HP to even stay close in the straights, you can smoke them in tight sections. In most TX tracks the cars are pretty equal. TWS is favorable to high HP cars just because of the long straight. MSR Cresson...anything is competitive there, about the same but slightly less so with Hallett and the new Eagles Canyon.
261whp/22wtq on a dynodynamics, I have good suspension, and 225 nt-01's...I better be competitive. I've run a few days at MSR in Dallas, but I plan on doing well at Hallett...I did 50-hours of track time there in 2007 alone, lol. I plan on sand-bagging all day long in practice, with gayed out lines...then hit the "secrets" of that track when its time to bring the pain.
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