CHRA/turbine bolts relaxing.
 

My CHRA bolts are relaxing again, but luckily the Inco safety wire kept them safe.
http://i55.tinypic.com/oism7a.jpg
Those bolts in the pic, with the safety wire.

TiAL doesn't understand the need for a failsafe, drilled inconel bolt. So I'm stuck using the standard crap metal bolt supplied by TiAL. I stretched the bolts again at Houston, but thanks to the safety wire I drove the car in the last session of the day, then drove the car 5-hours home.

I contacted ARTech tonight and I'm going to drop the car off with him to build a crane connecting at the compressor housing. I'd appreciate it if you guys could whore through with pictures of turbo cranes and we can get a good plan for fixing this relaxing hardware. I don't really know which direction to go, hanging the crane to the compressor housing looks easy, hitting the turbine is going to take some serious effort and be a real bitch to service because the turbo is so low and so close the to the engine mount.

All I know is I want a crane strong enough to hold the motor.

http://www.bufkinengineering.com/bracket001.JPG
http://www.bufkinengineering.com/bracket004.JPG
http://www.bufkinengineering.com/turbo_bracket.htm
http://www.honda-tech.com/showthread.php?t=2069621
http://www.exhaust-driven.com/pics/e...s/turbo061.JPG
http://www.key-ideas.com/big%20turbo%202.JPG
http://www.key-ideas.com/big%20turbo%201.JPG
http://www.key-ideas.com/turbo%20brace%201.JPG
http://www.midlana.com/Diaries/Old%2...urbo_brace.JPG
What not to do
http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o...t/P1030889.jpg
What are these funky mount thingies (made from pipe) called?
http://lh3.ggpht.com/_gVb57v5ozjI/Sm...ward%20040.jpg


oh my god:
http://www.midlana.com/Diaries/Old%2...wastegates.JPG
http://www.midlana.com/Diaries/Old%2.../2009June_Dec/

F1's contribution:
http://www.gurneyflap.com/Resources/DSC03786.jpg
http://www.gurneyflap.com/Resources/DSC03763.jpg
http://www.gurneyflap.com/Resources/DSC05996.jpg

I don't have much to contribute... but, aren't these type things usually better placed under the turbo. This would place your 'crane' in compression instead of tension and should be more effective at supporting the weight and damping vibrations. Also, Midlana is freaking sweet, I can't wait for it to be done so I can buy the book.

Have you talked to any machine shops about drilling the holes in the inconel bolts? I have briefly talked to Savington about him doing my future setup and I believe he knows a machine shop that will do it.

I am not an engineer, but I think it's a safe bet to assume the F1 route is the strongest.

I think so but i mean shit dude you are the only one that I have seen thats had this problem as much as you do. Might as well do something like that F1 example and something on the bottom of the turbo as well this way the bastard never moves. If its worth doing, in this instance, it seems like its worth over doing imo

This is really a 2 step problem.

Step 1. Weld turbo to block with large piece of scrap metal

Step 2. Now turbo hit block.

Attachment 190909

Attachment 190910

Attachment 190911

Interesting:
Attachment 190912

I know I'm a noob at this, but some of those braces in the pics have the support on the turbine side, using the very bolts that get loose. You may want to focus on the setups that are on the compressor side.

See... but with the support, they won't get loose!

Problem solved.

I like the single adjustable bottom support best, but this will only work if you have something to attach it to underneath the turbo. Nest is the fancy five point. In your case it will probably only need to be a four point because your turbo setup is not sticking way out off the motor. The key to the latter setup is that all of the weight is being supported by the side of the block via the attachment point at the exhaust stud. The valve cover connections are only stabilizers. You do not want a lot of torque on those valve cover points

This is how it was done on factory turbo bp's for wrc. They had a boss cast into the bottom of the turbo which bolted to a bracket that was bolted to the block. Obviously you wouldn't have the boss on the turbo but adding a flange off the (help me out here) compressor clocking bolts would have the same effect and not introduce another part to stretch under heat.

In fact the bolt to the turbo boss was only used, in the OEM Mazda installation, to locate the turbo on the bracket rather than be in high tension supporting it's weight all the time. Therefore no breakage or stretching.

I wish I had my camera with me, but the phonecam will have to do. This is the turbo crane from a Porsche Cheyenne Turbo...

http://www.imagelinkers.com/out.php/...turbocrane.jpg
http://www.imagelinkers.com/out.php/...urbocrane2.jpg
http://www.imagelinkers.com/out.php/...urbocrane1.jpg

your intution serves you well. I am an engineer, and I'll add this: These supports are longish tubes like columns. If they are simply supported by rod ends on both sides (3degrees of freedom) they will hold more load before failing in tnesion rather than compression all other things being equal. That said, a reasonably sized thin wall tube that does have 3DOF at both ends can take ALOT of force, look at push rod suspensions on formula cars and kit cars and the like; it is very important if you go this route to ensure that the push rod has 3dof at both ends all the way though the range of motion though. If it binds at either end the forces go through the roof and the likelihood of it buckling under load is greatly increased.

-Brad

Drive like a man, see what happens.
I fully intent for ARTech to make something "fancy", and significantly overdone.
Bingo
I'm not entirely confinced its the mass of the turbo mounted to the turbine, I think it's the 30lb mass on the end of a tuning fork we call the "turbo", or for that reason I want to do a multi-point crane tied to the "furthest out piece of turbo" to damp the vibration. I'm not entirely convinced the CHRA and turbine housing weight are causing the CHRA/turbine bolts to relax. I need an engineer to convince me.
I noticed this on my sister's MSM, and my inability to kill the bolts on the turbo after a few extended sessions.
Thanks, I'll discuss this with Abe, or maybe he'll show up in this thread.

I'd also like to add that considering my occupation, your post is the best piece of advice I've ever received from Baton Rouge.
Oh man, I think I'm getting warmer on this deal.

Thanks, we are not all backwoods hicks out here :D

Acadia, East BR, Cameron, Vermilion...I can keep going.

Its true I dont track my shit anymore but even so I'd still like to see what you end up with. And as far as testicular manly fortitude goes with how I drive, you havent seen my build thread lately have you lol

Thanks for the interest, I hope this is my fix.

There is no room in this thread for people to tell me that a year of driving twisty-roads is anything close to what the Miata Challenge crew is doing in one lap. Now that I'm on the gas longer thanks to the new shocks, the problem is back.

Just think about TWS, I ran 45-minutes non-stop at one point, which means about 23 times I took the car from 80mph-150mph in one stint. When was the last time you hung the tack at 5500rpm in 6th? It's another world out there, and it's a cruel one. Trail-braking from 150-70mph, through an apron, into a corner...that's duty cycle. I can't complain about snugging-up my nuts 3-4 times per year, but I'm mainly doing this so I don't have to order more bolts and snap these in the turbine housing.

Well I for one have OVER a year of twisty-roads experience :giggle:
http://cache-04.gawkerassets.com/ass...itwrong_01.jpg

Is that Obama's high-speed rail? I like.

We almost made it to page 2 before going off topic, lol.

I used to road race with my old FD many moons ago. I know what its like man and trust me no one is down playing the abuse that your car is taking on the track. Its respectable no doubt.

The only reason I havent hung the tach for that long at that high an rpm is that I am still on the stock block at 27psi with maxed out injectors. Once the new block is in, ill peg it at 7300rpm for a little while on the highway. Sorry, best I can do match your high levels of testosterone lol

Sorry. More pics of turbo cranes:

http://www.californiatreeequipment.c...crane/9163.jpg

No, for realz.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v6...g/DSC00663.jpg

http://lh3.ggpht.com/_gVb57v5ozjI/Sm...ward%20034.jpg

That one looks almost too sturdy.

No it looks like what Hustler needs

Hustler will break it. That's why we can't have nice things around here. Needs moar triangulation.

I'll have to upload a picture tonight. The way my turbo and wastegate actuator sit, I made a simple L bracket that connects the compressor and the actuator to the head, using the location of factory engine removal bracket.

http://lh3.ggpht.com/_gVb57v5ozjI/Sm...ward%20034.jpg

i have seen this unit (or another agtronic one) first hand and i can say that it is sturdy. the tripod is suuuper solid and the shafts are supposed to absorb vibration/weight while allowing for thermal expansion and contraction with the small amount of play. (which would be a concren of mine since everything gets sooooo hot)

I still want to know why they tie it to the turbine and not the compressor, it's a real bitch to hit the turbine there.

Can we get a few pictures of your engine bay in this thread? Seems like all of these would hit your hood or just be impossible for your setup.

because if you tighen down on the compressor side and thermal expansion happens, your adding torque to the flange area where as with it on the hot side your pulling directly on the axis of the flange.

I still like the kludgy Soviet engineering of this one:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v6...g/DSC00663.jpg

holy shit, Agtronic is legit:
http://www.agtronicmotorsport.com/ad...ew_gen_087.jpg

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5014/...3b8a2e86_b.jpg
Any thoughts on attaching it to the v-band coupler's extra thread?

i think its because your turbo wants to run more boost.

i dont know that the extra thread would give any quantifiable difference being that the coupler will just be stable and float so to say in relation to the turbo/mani if you did it that way.

http://i53.tinypic.com/2gvlseh.jpg
I don't know how I'm going to tie it into the turbine, but I gotta figure this out.

I called Agtronic and they weren't too complimentary of TiAL, aparently Savington and I aren't the only ones with this problem. They are no longer using TiAL housings on racecars, lol. I still think I can fix this, but I'm not sure if I'd rather put the brace on the bolts that relax, or the compressor housing.

Maybe going from the bottom is the best option if we go to the turbine side, it's just not easy to get there.

So what V-Band housings are they using on the race cars?

http://i55.tinypic.com/oism7a.jpg
http://i55.tinypic.com/ogjkw5.jpg
http://i55.tinypic.com/6yh6it.jpg
http://i56.tinypic.com/x6in89.jpg
http://i56.tinypic.com/34jewqt.jpg

They're not using them anymore, back to a 4-bolt.

With Inconel studs that are not stretching?

God this shit is annoying, right when I am ready to spend money we find that what had previously worked well was starting to not work.

What are those square flats on the top of the manifold for?

Triangle is:

1. Front driver's engine mount lift-eye bolt <or> frontmost upper exhaust manifold stud. This link will be in compression.
2. Rearmost upper exhaust manifold stud <or> cas bolt <or> transmission housing bolt. This link will be in compression.
3. "crossover" bar mounted to intake manifold. A turnbuckle is used to adjust tension. This link will be in tension.

Not sure how securing the assembly to your turbo-to-manifold connection is going to help with your CHRA to Turbine housing bolts. At least, those are the only bolts that I'm picturing you having problems with in my mind. I don't know how any sort of crane assembly on the turbine side would help. You said you wanted to mount to the compressor housing, which makes sense to me as far as solving your problem. Mounting to the turbine housing isn't going to help that area - it seems now you're dealing with vibration vs. the weight of the compressor/chra/intake plumbing instead of the weight of the entire turbocharger/exhaust system... Have I lost my mind?

I might be concerned about vibration weakening something at that point. I'm not sure how much the exhaust manifold flexes when it's hot. Front to back motion on those housing bolts might end poorly.

I would feel more confident if the bracket attached to four of the bolts to spread any load out over more of the turbo housing.

We've all lost our minds. I'm staying away from mounting to anything that holds the turbo on the car for the crane, I think that makes sense when considering torsion on stuff that get's hot. Mounting to the motor mount locations is not an option, the turbo is too close.

I agree with you, and this is why I looked to the compressor housing. Mounting here pushes the fulcrum point "further out" and away from heat, I think this is a good tactic to reduce vibration.

I'm not an engineer, but I've realized that all that heavy turbo stuff on the end of the manifold is a tuning fork essentially. It's easier to stop vibration my touching the end of the tuning fork rather than the middle. Draw a straight line through one of the manifold runners, vibration is occuring their. Now think of a sea-saw where the fulcrum point is the v-band at the maifold. Connecting the crane close to the turbine housing will do less to damp vibration than at the compressor housing.

Will someone who does math and engineering explain this for me, I feel like a troglodyte describing my uneducated thoughts.

Whoops, didn't mean engine mount bolt, meant enging lifting eye bolt. Will change in original post.

UGH, why did you have to post a pic of a 2.7?

It almost looks to me like you could fit a diving board type brace under neath that bolts to the block. I can see the bolt holes on the block in this picture that you could use:

http://i56.tinypic.com/x6in89.jpg

The GTX came stock with this as you can sorta see in this picture I took while pulling the engine. I can get a better one later if need be.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v6...r/DSC02698.jpg

I believe bundy has been running this sort of brace for a long time and it seems to work for him.

My old turbo Miata had a setup just like what you see above -- a heim joint bolted to a modified turbine clamp plate. The other end of the heim joint attached to a 'crane' -- a piece of barstock about 7/16" dia that was threaded at one end and welded to the the manifold head flange at the other. The reason for picking it up at the turbine rather than compressor is to get closer to the turbo's CG.

The clamp plate cracked off twice. The manifold developed cracks in several places. Not from poor manufacture, but because of vibration. BPs are thrashy, violent engines. My (16ga tube equal length 321) manifold would resonate visibly and audibly at ~2900 rpm. This is what cracked everything to hell.

A heimjoint crane will help support the mass of the turbo while letting the manifold grow and move around, and this will help the manifold live, but it will do nothing to increase the turbo/manifold's natural frequency (i.e. stiffen it). Too many DOF.

To stiffen the system you need a rigid brace between turbo and block. Stock MSMs have one. All Evos have one. I eventually made one too and it solved my resonance problem. The rigid brace posits that allowing movement via thermal expansion is secondary to increasing the natural frequency of the turbo/manifold.

So the style of support depends on the problem you're trying to resolve.

How do I make a rigid brace that permits expansion and contraction of the manifold?

Maybe we need to be thinking less "turbo brace" and more "stock intake manifold brace" - one is a generic design, the other was designed by engineers that make a lot of money to make things not fail specifically on this engine.

You running ATI engine damper?

Of course not, I didn't have room for one until a few weeks ago due to the swaybar brace. I'm not certain this is the fix either, nor do I have $600 and want to pull the motor to install it.

Make it less rigid in one plane like the stock MSM one.

depends on which direction it's rigid in. think leaf spring I guess.

Aryamehr:
http://media8.dropshots.com/photos/5...6/b_205841.jpg

Think about a diving board like I mentioned. Its how mazda does it stock.

Are there any thoughts on the movement of my manifold as it expands and contracts? I'm not really sure where to go here, but I'm well on my way. I suppose I could attach it to a water line and use the same "plane specific" orientation as Mazda did.