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Old 02-17-2011, 11:18 PM   #1
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Default CHRA/turbine bolts relaxing.

My CHRA bolts are relaxing again, but luckily the Inco safety wire kept them safe.

Those bolts in the pic, with the safety wire.

TiAL doesn't understand the need for a failsafe, drilled inconel bolt. So I'm stuck using the standard crap metal bolt supplied by TiAL. I stretched the bolts again at Houston, but thanks to the safety wire I drove the car in the last session of the day, then drove the car 5-hours home.

I contacted ARTech tonight and I'm going to drop the car off with him to build a crane connecting at the compressor housing. I'd appreciate it if you guys could ***** through with pictures of turbo cranes and we can get a good plan for fixing this relaxing hardware. I don't really know which direction to go, hanging the crane to the compressor housing looks easy, hitting the turbine is going to take some serious effort and be a real bitch to service because the turbo is so low and so close the to the engine mount.

All I know is I want a crane strong enough to hold the motor.

Last edited by hustler; 02-24-2011 at 04:55 PM.
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Old 02-17-2011, 11:58 PM   #2
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Old 02-18-2011, 12:02 AM   #3
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Old 02-18-2011, 12:31 AM   #4
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I don't have much to contribute... but, aren't these type things usually better placed under the turbo. This would place your 'crane' in compression instead of tension and should be more effective at supporting the weight and damping vibrations. Also, Midlana is freaking sweet, I can't wait for it to be done so I can buy the book.
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Old 02-18-2011, 12:39 AM   #5
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Have you talked to any machine shops about drilling the holes in the inconel bolts? I have briefly talked to Savington about him doing my future setup and I believe he knows a machine shop that will do it.
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Old 02-18-2011, 12:54 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by baron340 View Post
I don't have much to contribute... but, aren't these type things usually better placed under the turbo. This would place your 'crane' in compression instead of tension and should be more effective at supporting the weight and damping vibrations.
I am not an engineer, but I think it's a safe bet to assume the F1 route is the strongest.
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Old 02-18-2011, 01:09 AM   #7
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I think so but i mean **** dude you are the only one that I have seen thats had this problem as much as you do. Might as well do something like that F1 example and something on the bottom of the turbo as well this way the bastard never moves. If its worth doing, in this instance, it seems like its worth over doing imo
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Old 02-18-2011, 01:37 AM   #8
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This is really a 2 step problem.

Step 1. Weld turbo to block with large piece of scrap metal

Step 2. Now turbo hit block.
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Old 02-18-2011, 02:16 AM   #9
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Old 02-18-2011, 03:45 AM   #10
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I know I'm a noob at this, but some of those braces in the pics have the support on the turbine side, using the very bolts that get loose. You may want to focus on the setups that are on the compressor side.
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Old 02-18-2011, 05:11 AM   #11
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See... but with the support, they won't get loose!

Problem solved.
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Old 02-18-2011, 08:23 AM   #12
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I like the single adjustable bottom support best, but this will only work if you have something to attach it to underneath the turbo. Nest is the fancy five point. In your case it will probably only need to be a four point because your turbo setup is not sticking way out off the motor. The key to the latter setup is that all of the weight is being supported by the side of the block via the attachment point at the exhaust stud. The valve cover connections are only stabilizers. You do not want a lot of torque on those valve cover points
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Old 02-18-2011, 08:53 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by baron340 View Post
I don't have much to contribute... but, aren't these type things usually better placed under the turbo.
This is how it was done on factory turbo bp's for wrc. They had a boss cast into the bottom of the turbo which bolted to a bracket that was bolted to the block. Obviously you wouldn't have the boss on the turbo but adding a flange off the (help me out here) compressor clocking bolts would have the same effect and not introduce another part to stretch under heat.

In fact the bolt to the turbo boss was only used, in the OEM Mazda installation, to locate the turbo on the bracket rather than be in high tension supporting it's weight all the time. Therefore no breakage or stretching.
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Old 02-18-2011, 10:18 AM   #14
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I wish I had my camera with me, but the phonecam will have to do. This is the turbo crane from a Porsche Cheyenne Turbo...



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Old 02-18-2011, 10:22 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hustler View Post
I am not an engineer, but I think it's a safe bet to assume the F1 route is the strongest.
your intution serves you well. I am an engineer, and I'll add this: These supports are longish tubes like columns. If they are simply supported by rod ends on both sides (3degrees of freedom) they will hold more load before failing in tnesion rather than compression all other things being equal. That said, a reasonably sized thin wall tube that does have 3DOF at both ends can take ALOT of force, look at push rod suspensions on formula cars and kit cars and the like; it is very important if you go this route to ensure that the push rod has 3dof at both ends all the way though the range of motion though. If it binds at either end the forces go through the roof and the likelihood of it buckling under load is greatly increased.

-Brad
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Old 02-18-2011, 10:43 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leatherface24 View Post
I think so but i mean **** dude you are the only one that I have seen thats had this problem as much as you do. Might as well do something like that F1 example and something on the bottom of the turbo as well this way the bastard never moves. If its worth doing, in this instance, it seems like its worth over doing imo
Drive like a man, see what happens.
I fully intent for ARTech to make something "fancy", and significantly overdone.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 99mx5 View Post
I know I'm a noob at this, but some of those braces in the pics have the support on the turbine side, using the very bolts that get loose. You may want to focus on the setups that are on the compressor side.
Bingo
Quote:
Originally Posted by djp0623 View Post
I like the single adjustable bottom support best, but this will only work if you have something to attach it to underneath the turbo. Nest is the fancy five point. In your case it will probably only need to be a four point because your turbo setup is not sticking way out off the motor. The key to the latter setup is that all of the weight is being supported by the side of the block via the attachment point at the exhaust stud. The valve cover connections are only stabilizers. You do not want a lot of torque on those valve cover points
I'm not entirely confinced its the mass of the turbo mounted to the turbine, I think it's the 30lb mass on the end of a tuning fork we call the "turbo", or for that reason I want to do a multi-point crane tied to the "furthest out piece of turbo" to damp the vibration. I'm not entirely convinced the CHRA and turbine housing weight are causing the CHRA/turbine bolts to relax. I need an engineer to convince me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by inferno94 View Post
This is how it was done on factory turbo bp's for wrc. They had a boss cast into the bottom of the turbo which bolted to a bracket that was bolted to the block. Obviously you wouldn't have the boss on the turbo but adding a flange off the (help me out here) compressor clocking bolts would have the same effect and not introduce another part to stretch under heat.

In fact the bolt to the turbo boss was only used, in the OEM Mazda installation, to locate the turbo on the bracket rather than be in high tension supporting it's weight all the time. Therefore no breakage or stretching.
I noticed this on my sister's MSM, and my inability to kill the bolts on the turbo after a few extended sessions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by golftdibrad View Post
your intution serves you well. I am an engineer, and I'll add this: These supports are longish tubes like columns. If they are simply supported by rod ends on both sides (3degrees of freedom) they will hold more load before failing in tnesion rather than compression all other things being equal. That said, a reasonably sized thin wall tube that does have 3DOF at both ends can take ALOT of force, look at push rod suspensions on formula cars and kit cars and the like; it is very important if you go this route to ensure that the push rod has 3dof at both ends all the way though the range of motion though. If it binds at either end the forces go through the roof and the likelihood of it buckling under load is greatly increased.

-Brad
Thanks, I'll discuss this with Abe, or maybe he'll show up in this thread.

I'd also like to add that considering my occupation, your post is the best piece of advice I've ever received from Baton Rouge.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Doppelgänger View Post
I wish I had my camera with me, but the phonecam will have to do. This is the turbo crane from a Porsche Cheyenne Turbo...



Oh man, I think I'm getting warmer on this deal.
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Old 02-18-2011, 11:08 AM   #17
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Thanks, I'll discuss this with Abe, or maybe he'll show up in this thread.

I'd also like to add that considering my occupation, your post is the best piece of advice I've ever received from Baton Rouge.
Thanks, we are not all backwoods hicks out here
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Old 02-18-2011, 11:18 AM   #18
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Thanks, we are not all backwoods hicks out here
Acadia, East BR, Cameron, Vermilion...I can keep going.
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Old 02-18-2011, 11:48 AM   #19
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Its true I dont track my **** anymore but even so I'd still like to see what you end up with. And as far as testicular manly fortitude goes with how I drive, you havent seen my build thread lately have you lol
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Old 02-18-2011, 11:57 AM   #20
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Its true I dont track my **** anymore but even so I'd still like to see what you end up with. And as far as testicular manly fortitude goes with how I drive, you havent seen my build thread lately have you lol
Thanks for the interest, I hope this is my fix.

There is no room in this thread for people to tell me that a year of driving twisty-roads is anything close to what the Miata Challenge crew is doing in one lap. Now that I'm on the gas longer thanks to the new shocks, the problem is back.

Just think about TWS, I ran 45-minutes non-stop at one point, which means about 23 times I took the car from 80mph-150mph in one stint. When was the last time you hung the tack at 5500rpm in 6th? It's another world out there, and it's a cruel one. Trail-braking from 150-70mph, through an apron, into a corner...that's duty cycle. I can't complain about snugging-up my nuts 3-4 times per year, but I'm mainly doing this so I don't have to order more bolts and snap these in the turbine housing.
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