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Old 04-28-2013, 07:46 PM   #1
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Default Confirm Slipped Crank Pulley

Wanted to get some other opinions before I go and order all the stuff for a TB/WP/CP change.

Back story. 1.6 long nose, ms3x, td05-16g. Finishing up installing a replacement motor from a 93 automatic car with about 90,000 miles on it, which was running when I pulled it. Got everything hooked back up, got the car started, went to check timing and it was all over the place.

Timing is set to Fixed in tunerstudio at 10*

I had pulled the number 1 spark plug and used the dip stick to set TDC as there were no marks or notches on the pulley before. I loosened the CAS sensor and moved it to where the engine sounded healthy, went to re check the timing, and the timing mark just slowly goes around, counter clockwise, while looking at the engine.

Am I right in thinking the pully is degraded and needs to be replaced?
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Old 04-28-2013, 09:44 PM   #2
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I don't think so.

You're describing a slipping pulley, as in it is actively slipping.

A slipped pulley has the timing mark off by 1-364 degrees, and generally stays there. Best way to check is to take it off, and see if the timing mark is lined up with the middle of the keyway (I think).

Or, by using your TDC method, when the #1 cylinder is at TDC of the compression (?) stroke, there should be a mark on the pulley at the top. Then with your timing fixed at 10*, use the CAS to get it roughly close to the 10* mark on the timing belt cover, then us tunerstudios to fine tune so it reads exactly 10*, and then switch back to your timing table.
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Old 04-28-2013, 10:08 PM   #3
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Keep in mind that if your ECU is sending weird timing out, it'll look like the timing mark is moving all over because the timing light is flashing whenever the #1 cylinder is sparking.. It's more likely that your CAS is wonky or something; if the pulley itself was slipping the cams would be totally out of phase and it wouldn't run... The early 1.6's had problems with the crank nose, but the intermediate and long nose 1.6 cranks (91 and up) rarely fail there.
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Old 04-28-2013, 10:23 PM   #4
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Also, just a few random data points- the automatic motors had some slight differences; different cams, lower compression, and a different throttle body (specifically the TPS). They made a bit less power, and the torque curve comes on a at lower rpms. Great motors for forced induction.
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Old 04-28-2013, 10:25 PM   #5
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Hrmm. . . Ill have to go back through all my settings and look for anything wonkey.

With the previous motor and no changes to the megasquirt, I was able to time the motor without any issues. Next weekend ill have time to pull it all apart and get a look at them. Just in case I went ahead and ordered the loctite, new woodruff key, crank bolt, pulley, and a timing belt kit just in case.

I had put the mark on the pulley for TDC, and the timing light is lighting it up just like it should. It just rotates around in an even movement continually.
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Old 04-28-2013, 10:26 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinky View Post
Also, just a few random data points- the automatic motors had some slight differences; different cams, lower compression, and a different throttle body (specifically the TPS). They made a bit less power, and the torque curve comes on a at lower rpms. Great motors for forced induction.
The CAS should be the same for the manual and auto motors correct? Would like to eliminate that possibility.
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Old 04-28-2013, 10:29 PM   #7
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Simple test:

1: Remove #1 spark plug.

2: Remove oil dipsick, and drop it through the #1 plug hole.

3: Using wrench, slowly rotate crank clockwise (as viewed from front), observing both dipstick and timing mark on pulley. Mark should cross "T" as dipstick peaks.

If not, pulley has slipped.

(If available, dial indicator with magnetic base and wooden dowel can provide a slightly more accurate substitute for dipstick.)
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Old 04-28-2013, 10:31 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darthteddy View Post
The CAS should be the same for the manual and auto motors correct?
Yes.
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Old 04-28-2013, 10:41 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darthteddy View Post
The CAS should be the same for the manual and auto motors correct? Would like to eliminate that possibility.
All 1.6 CAS's are the same. Only real difference in sensors and stuff is the TPS: automatics used a 4 wire full-sweep sensor, manuals use a three wire lower resolution sensor.
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Old 04-28-2013, 10:49 PM   #10
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My vTPS endeavors are a completely different thread. :facepalm
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Old 04-28-2013, 11:04 PM   #11
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Pinky, your avatar makes me sad.

OP, do you still have the crank pulley from the other motor? Swap it on. I wouldn't use a crank pulley that has slipped.
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Old 04-28-2013, 11:09 PM   #12
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Old motor is a short nose crank. :(

Hopefully the new parts will be in before the weekend when I tear back into it. Car hasnt moved in a year or so. Definatly no rush now.
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Old 04-28-2013, 11:16 PM   #13
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[QUOTE=hornetball;1006226]Pinky, your avatar makes me sad.

Taking that picture made me sad, especially since it was ten minutes after i handed $16k to one of the LS1 swap kit pioneers for their prototype car, only to have the sumbitch burst into flames on the way home. Bad day.
On the plus side, it probably saved my life, as their subframe was of the same dubious quality as their fuel plumbing; had the car not burned it would have likely come apart at speed from one of their utterly shitty welds failing.
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Old 04-28-2013, 11:21 PM   #14
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I assume that his body was disposed of in a remote and shallow grave.
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Old 04-28-2013, 11:48 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Perez View Post
I assume that his body was disposed of in a remote and shallow grave.
Nope, not my style. I gave him the opportunity to do The Right Thing, he lawyered up. Karma is a bitch though, and bad things happen to bad people, which from what I understand eventually happened to him after taking deposits and payments from a LOT of people and never delivering ****. It's all ancient history at this point, and I went on to make some super-nice subframes of my own (after tearing the burned car apart and getting a good look at theirs it was obvious that i couldn't reuse anything they had made to rebuild my car, so I had to make a jig and start from scratch) and built some nifty LS1 cars until everybody and their mothers got into the game. Jacksonville is a large Small Town, and every now and then I hear about more of his continuing woe and failure, which always warms my heart. Buddhist, but not Buddha; thats me.
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Old 05-05-2013, 02:09 AM   #16
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Just an update to this thread..

I replaced the crank pulley and engine runs great. Timing was a breeze and I got to drive the car for the first time in a year.

The old pulley was so FUBAR that the outer ring spun around the middle as if there were needle bearings between them.

And the icing on the cake was that the PO of the motor seemed to have taken good care of the motor when he did his timing belt change. All seals were good, brand new woodruff key installed, and the keyway looked great.

Thanks for the help.
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Old 05-05-2013, 02:20 AM   #17
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All good!

Pinky, your new avatar makes me happy! (thanks Joe).
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Old 05-05-2013, 11:25 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darthteddy View Post
Just an update to this thread..

I replaced the crank pulley and engine runs great. Timing was a breeze and I got to drive the car for the first time in a year.

The old pulley was so FUBAR that the outer ring spun around the middle as if there were needle bearings between them.

And the icing on the cake was that the PO of the motor seemed to have taken good care of the motor when he did his timing belt change. All seals were good, brand new woodruff key installed, and the keyway looked great.

Thanks for the help.
Nice! The inner and outer ring separating never even occurred to me; that would explain how the cams stayed in phase, the engine timing was close enough to run and yet the mark was all over the board!! I'll definitely file that one away in the old noggin for future reference. Thanks!
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Old 05-05-2013, 11:28 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hornetball View Post
All good!

Pinky, your new avatar makes me happy! (thanks Joe).
Word. That's a keeper. All thanks go to the Howard Stern Show, without whom I would never have entirely too much knowledge of Bronys than I ever wanted, not to mention a number of other topics.
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