E85 Checklist
#1
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E85 Checklist
Well, it's been months since I posted a stupid question, and my car has been successfully turbod for about a year now (besides the front falling off).
So I figured it's time to ask a noon question, and then possibly make my car temporarily unsuccessfully running for a time.
What all do I need to worry about switching to e85? Here in the heart of the Midwest there are tons of stations that sell the stuff so I'm not worried there.
Here's what I've got so far:
1) GT500 injectors on the way (about 35% bigger than what I have now, and good for ~300bhp on e85 with turbo per a calculator I found online.)
2) wally 255 and extra "socks" (will be ordering this week)
3) install injectors, adjust req fuel, get car running on 91 octane as now.
4) run car to empty, drain tank, install wally and a few gallons of e85
-SAVE BACKUPS OF ALL CURRENT MAPS IN A SAFE PLACE
5) bump fuel tables by 35% across the board, get car started. Adjust AFR goals to e85 targets (I'll probably keep my wbo2 set to "gas" because it's familiar, or maybe go to lambda) and tune as I did after initial startup.
6)Gradually begin introducing timing, with a possible end goal of using "Pauls table" from the much ado about timing thread.
7) Replace fuel filter after first tank of e85 and possibly again after second tank. Do the same with the pickup sock.
8) keep an eye on all fuel lines etc, but it seems that NB lines should be fairly well set for ethanol resistance.
9) switch maps back and run gasoline again a week or two prior to putting the car away for winter so I don't store it with ethanol in the system.
Anything I'm missing? Am I in for a hell of a ride?
So I figured it's time to ask a noon question, and then possibly make my car temporarily unsuccessfully running for a time.
What all do I need to worry about switching to e85? Here in the heart of the Midwest there are tons of stations that sell the stuff so I'm not worried there.
Here's what I've got so far:
1) GT500 injectors on the way (about 35% bigger than what I have now, and good for ~300bhp on e85 with turbo per a calculator I found online.)
2) wally 255 and extra "socks" (will be ordering this week)
3) install injectors, adjust req fuel, get car running on 91 octane as now.
4) run car to empty, drain tank, install wally and a few gallons of e85
-SAVE BACKUPS OF ALL CURRENT MAPS IN A SAFE PLACE
5) bump fuel tables by 35% across the board, get car started. Adjust AFR goals to e85 targets (I'll probably keep my wbo2 set to "gas" because it's familiar, or maybe go to lambda) and tune as I did after initial startup.
6)Gradually begin introducing timing, with a possible end goal of using "Pauls table" from the much ado about timing thread.
7) Replace fuel filter after first tank of e85 and possibly again after second tank. Do the same with the pickup sock.
8) keep an eye on all fuel lines etc, but it seems that NB lines should be fairly well set for ethanol resistance.
9) switch maps back and run gasoline again a week or two prior to putting the car away for winter so I don't store it with ethanol in the system.
Anything I'm missing? Am I in for a hell of a ride?
#2
You pretty much got it down. maybe swap fuel filter after a couple hundo miles.
You will have to adjust both req fuel and fuel tables for the larger injectors, but when switching to e85 you can just bump req fuel again and the fuel table should work just fine.
you will have to make some adjustments to cold start in colder weather, the stuff just doesn't like to fire off when dead cold.
*edit: and I'd go through at least 2 tanks before I started tuning boost or higher boost. you'll be surprised by how much the afr's will jump from a dirty batch to a pure/clean one
You will have to adjust both req fuel and fuel tables for the larger injectors, but when switching to e85 you can just bump req fuel again and the fuel table should work just fine.
you will have to make some adjustments to cold start in colder weather, the stuff just doesn't like to fire off when dead cold.
*edit: and I'd go through at least 2 tanks before I started tuning boost or higher boost. you'll be surprised by how much the afr's will jump from a dirty batch to a pure/clean one
#3
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Thanks. I didn't even think about doing the fuel adjustment in req fuel instead of the VE table. That makes things super easy.
I also plan to do a ms firmware flash in the near future to get the new ebc sensitivity slider and get my ebc working once and for all.
I also plan to do a ms firmware flash in the near future to get the new ebc sensitivity slider and get my ebc working once and for all.
#7
I've been reading up on this lately as well. Seems to me that the MS2's flex settings aren't really sophisticated enough, where the ms3 might be a bit more advanced, I don't read much on that thing to save myself moneys.
I like this post though, thanks soviet
I plan on running a tank to empty, then switching tables. If the GM flex sensor I have works and I can plumb it in easily enough I'll use it and MS2's primitive multiplier to fine tune the mix, if I end up making it E70 or E60 from a gallon or two of 91 hanging around.
I bought the same injectors too, can't wait to try ev14 and injectors with solid measured data.
I like this post though, thanks soviet
The timing is so different for E85/pump gas that you can't simply have the ECU add a few degrees depending on fuel composition
- Switching from E85 to gas is easy, just run your tank to near-empty, put the other fuel in, change maps, and drive normally for a bit.
- Fuel composition sensor is nice, BUT only as a safeguard against different E85 mixtures . Sometimes E85 will be more like E70 and a flex fuel sensor will allow you to to avoid re-tuning fuel. Using a fuel sensor for gas AND E85 is a bandaid approach. See first point.
- Switching from E85 to gas is easy, just run your tank to near-empty, put the other fuel in, change maps, and drive normally for a bit.
- Fuel composition sensor is nice, BUT only as a safeguard against different E85 mixtures . Sometimes E85 will be more like E70 and a flex fuel sensor will allow you to to avoid re-tuning fuel. Using a fuel sensor for gas AND E85 is a bandaid approach. See first point.
I bought the same injectors too, can't wait to try ev14 and injectors with solid measured data.
#10
I haven't actually tried it (yet), but I'm pondering E85 on the street and 100 on the track (because E85 not available there).
--Ian
#13
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Right, so what I'm saying is that my 460cc injectors are currently doing great, and I'm getting 40% bigger injectors, and keeping boost the same... so I would think I should be fine.
Also, my ~620cc injectors at 3bar actually pump ~730cc at 60psi (NB) which looks to me like even with BSFC of 0.6 and 40% extra needed for corn, I should be good to like 270 BHP.
Am I totally missing something here?
Also, my ~620cc injectors at 3bar actually pump ~730cc at 60psi (NB) which looks to me like even with BSFC of 0.6 and 40% extra needed for corn, I should be good to like 270 BHP.
Am I totally missing something here?
#14
Someone else correct me if I'm wrong, but since the NB1 is returnless, the FPR does everything relative to to atmospheric pressure and not manifold pressure. So you effectively lower the fuel rail pressure as you increase boost, as as far as the engine is concerned it is relative to the manifold pressure.
At least, that is my interpretation into this.
At least, that is my interpretation into this.
#15
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No, you're right in that, I just assumed that since I'm good now I'd be good by going up 40%.
Except I just did a data logging run and I'm at 89.9% duty cycle at redline. So I'm not fine.
**** ******* dammit.
Granted, I'm at 11.1:1 and I'll probably go to the equivalent of 12.5:1 on corn, and part of the issue may be the stock pump not maintaining pressure to redline.. So I'd probably be okay. But only barely. And I don't want to be barely OK.
Fuuuuuuuu. Looks like 800s or so for me..
Except I just did a data logging run and I'm at 89.9% duty cycle at redline. So I'm not fine.
**** ******* dammit.
Granted, I'm at 11.1:1 and I'll probably go to the equivalent of 12.5:1 on corn, and part of the issue may be the stock pump not maintaining pressure to redline.. So I'd probably be okay. But only barely. And I don't want to be barely OK.
Fuuuuuuuu. Looks like 800s or so for me..
#16
No, you're right in that, I just assumed that since I'm good now I'd be good by going up 40%.
Except I just did a data logging run and I'm at 89.9% duty cycle at redline. So I'm not fine.
**** ******* dammit.
Granted, I'm at 11.1:1 and I'll probably go to the equivalent of 12.5:1 on corn, and part of the issue may be the stock pump not maintaining pressure to redline.. So I'd probably be okay. But only barely. And I don't want to be barely OK.
Fuuuuuuuu. Looks like 800s or so for me..
Except I just did a data logging run and I'm at 89.9% duty cycle at redline. So I'm not fine.
**** ******* dammit.
Granted, I'm at 11.1:1 and I'll probably go to the equivalent of 12.5:1 on corn, and part of the issue may be the stock pump not maintaining pressure to redline.. So I'd probably be okay. But only barely. And I don't want to be barely OK.
Fuuuuuuuu. Looks like 800s or so for me..
#18
No, you're right in that, I just assumed that since I'm good now I'd be good by going up 40%.
Except I just did a data logging run and I'm at 89.9% duty cycle at redline. So I'm not fine.
**** ******* dammit.
Granted, I'm at 11.1:1 and I'll probably go to the equivalent of 12.5:1 on corn, and part of the issue may be the stock pump not maintaining pressure to redline.. So I'd probably be okay. But only barely. And I don't want to be barely OK.
Fuuuuuuuu. Looks like 800s or so for me..
Except I just did a data logging run and I'm at 89.9% duty cycle at redline. So I'm not fine.
**** ******* dammit.
Granted, I'm at 11.1:1 and I'll probably go to the equivalent of 12.5:1 on corn, and part of the issue may be the stock pump not maintaining pressure to redline.. So I'd probably be okay. But only barely. And I don't want to be barely OK.
Fuuuuuuuu. Looks like 800s or so for me..
IMHO the right injectors to get if you're even thinking of E85 are ID1000s.
--Ian
#20
I'm talking about MS. Isn't the pro-efi like a 2500 ecu?
BTW op, you're still on the gt2554 right? If so, I think you will probably be fine with the gt500's. That turbo isn't going to make much more than 220-240whp even if you crank it up.
Also the whole "flows more at xxx bar" thing might not be as straightforward as it seems. I'm fiddling around with some ID725's right now, and they are technically supposed ot flow 830cc @ 60psib.....Well, plugging in values for 831cc is not even close, the car runs super lean and just doesn't like it. Plugging in values for 725 it runs fine. My point is that however it is they test the injectors (I hear it's from pumping solution inside a machine/flow tester), it doesn't really reflect how they seem to respond in real life. And yes, my dead time and battery voltage compensations are dialed in per specs.
I know with other cars too, I always had to scale injectors a little lower than advertised for them to work right (like ID1000's on a subaru usually scale to 890-920cc)
Last edited by 18psi; 04-29-2015 at 09:23 AM.