E85 Checklist - Miata Turbo Forum - Boost cars, acquire cats.

Welcome to Miataturbo.net   Members
 


General Miata Chat A place to talk about anything Miata

Reply
 
 
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 04-27-2015, 01:10 AM   #1
Senior Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (5)
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 659
Total Cats: 66
Default E85 Checklist

Well, it's been months since I posted a stupid question, and my car has been successfully turbod for about a year now (besides the front falling off).

So I figured it's time to ask a noon question, and then possibly make my car temporarily unsuccessfully running for a time.

What all do I need to worry about switching to e85? Here in the heart of the Midwest there are tons of stations that sell the stuff so I'm not worried there.

Here's what I've got so far:

1) GT500 injectors on the way (about 35% bigger than what I have now, and good for ~300bhp on e85 with turbo per a calculator I found online.)

2) wally 255 and extra "socks" (will be ordering this week)

3) install injectors, adjust req fuel, get car running on 91 octane as now.

4) run car to empty, drain tank, install wally and a few gallons of e85

-SAVE BACKUPS OF ALL CURRENT MAPS IN A SAFE PLACE

5) bump fuel tables by 35% across the board, get car started. Adjust AFR goals to e85 targets (I'll probably keep my wbo2 set to "gas" because it's familiar, or maybe go to lambda) and tune as I did after initial startup.

6)Gradually begin introducing timing, with a possible end goal of using "Pauls table" from the much ado about timing thread.

7) Replace fuel filter after first tank of e85 and possibly again after second tank. Do the same with the pickup sock.

8) keep an eye on all fuel lines etc, but it seems that NB lines should be fairly well set for ethanol resistance.

9) switch maps back and run gasoline again a week or two prior to putting the car away for winter so I don't store it with ethanol in the system.

Anything I'm missing? Am I in for a hell of a ride?
mlev is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-27-2015, 01:13 AM   #2
Murderator
iTrader: (76)
 
18psi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 36,174
Total Cats: 2,575
Default

You pretty much got it down. maybe swap fuel filter after a couple hundo miles.
You will have to adjust both req fuel and fuel tables for the larger injectors, but when switching to e85 you can just bump req fuel again and the fuel table should work just fine.
you will have to make some adjustments to cold start in colder weather, the stuff just doesn't like to fire off when dead cold.

*edit: and I'd go through at least 2 tanks before I started tuning boost or higher boost. you'll be surprised by how much the afr's will jump from a dirty batch to a pure/clean one
18psi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-27-2015, 01:16 AM   #3
Senior Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (5)
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 659
Total Cats: 66
Default

Thanks. I didn't even think about doing the fuel adjustment in req fuel instead of the VE table. That makes things super easy.

I also plan to do a ms firmware flash in the near future to get the new ebc sensitivity slider and get my ebc working once and for all.
mlev is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-27-2015, 01:55 AM   #4
Elite Member
 
codrus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Santa Clara, CA
Posts: 3,877
Total Cats: 344
Default

Why no flex fuel sensor?

--Ian
codrus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-27-2015, 02:26 AM   #5
Murderator
iTrader: (76)
 
18psi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 36,174
Total Cats: 2,575
Default

has anyone got a flex fuel setup successfully running?
like completely , 100%, tested/tried/true no hiccups no issues for a significant amount of time?
I'd like to see that setup/tune if possible.
18psi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-27-2015, 02:36 AM   #6
Senior Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (5)
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 659
Total Cats: 66
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 18psi View Post
has anyone got a flex fuel setup successfully running?
like completely , 100%, tested/tried/true no hiccups no issues for a significant amount of time?
I'd like to see that setup/tune if possible.
This is pretty much what I wanted to post, but I left my flame suit at work this weekend.
mlev is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-27-2015, 02:43 AM   #7
Sadfab Union President
iTrader: (3)
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Kansas
Posts: 2,690
Total Cats: 113
Default

I've been reading up on this lately as well. Seems to me that the MS2's flex settings aren't really sophisticated enough, where the ms3 might be a bit more advanced, I don't read much on that thing to save myself moneys.

I like this post though, thanks soviet

Quote:
The timing is so different for E85/pump gas that you can't simply have the ECU add a few degrees depending on fuel composition
- Switching from E85 to gas is easy, just run your tank to near-empty, put the other fuel in, change maps, and drive normally for a bit.
- Fuel composition sensor is nice, BUT only as a safeguard against different E85 mixtures . Sometimes E85 will be more like E70 and a flex fuel sensor will allow you to to avoid re-tuning fuel. Using a fuel sensor for gas AND E85 is a bandaid approach. See first point.
I plan on running a tank to empty, then switching tables. If the GM flex sensor I have works and I can plumb it in easily enough I'll use it and MS2's primitive multiplier to fine tune the mix, if I end up making it E70 or E60 from a gallon or two of 91 hanging around.

I bought the same injectors too, can't wait to try ev14 and injectors with solid measured data.
deezums is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-27-2015, 03:13 PM   #8
Senior Member
iTrader: (2)
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Saint Paul, MN
Posts: 1,295
Total Cats: 22
Default

All of this research is what's keeping me from getting the sensor and converting myself too. I don't want to be e85 exclusive in a DD, there aren't that many e85 pumps outside the cities..
Der_Idiot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-27-2015, 04:00 PM   #9
Senior Member
iTrader: (1)
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Columbia, SC
Posts: 1,342
Total Cats: 78
Default

I'm on mobile so I didn't pull up your build thread, but if you don't have a rising rate FPR you'll need one. I'm at 75% duty cycle at 200hp with the gt500 injectors with the stock NB1 FPR system.
Schuyler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-27-2015, 06:35 PM   #10
Elite Member
 
codrus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Santa Clara, CA
Posts: 3,877
Total Cats: 344
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by deezums View Post
I've been reading up on this lately as well. Seems to me that the MS2's flex settings aren't really sophisticated enough, where the ms3 might be a bit more advanced, I don't read much on that thing to save myself moneys.
Yeah, sorry, I have an MS3, where I'm under the impression the flex fuel works pretty well. I tend to forget that most of the megasquirts out there are 2s...

I haven't actually tried it (yet), but I'm pondering E85 on the street and 100 on the track (because E85 not available there).

--Ian
codrus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-27-2015, 08:41 PM   #11
Senior Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (5)
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 659
Total Cats: 66
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Schuyler View Post
I'm on mobile so I didn't pull up your build thread, but if you don't have a rising rate FPR you'll need one. I'm at 75% duty cycle at 200hp with the gt500 injectors with the stock NB1 FPR system.
I'm not saying you're lying, but

Don't they flow like 630cc at 3bar?

i'm running 460s now, at 11-12psi on 91 octane, and it's doing fine. These injectors are 40% bigger.
Attached Thumbnails
E85 Checklist-screenshot20150427at64003pm_ibjizzbjwu.png  
mlev is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-27-2015, 08:45 PM   #12
Murderator
iTrader: (76)
 
18psi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 36,174
Total Cats: 2,575
Default

are you taking into account the 30% needed for corn?
18psi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-27-2015, 08:55 PM   #13
Senior Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (5)
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 659
Total Cats: 66
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 18psi View Post
are you taking into account the 30% needed for corn?
Right, so what I'm saying is that my 460cc injectors are currently doing great, and I'm getting 40% bigger injectors, and keeping boost the same... so I would think I should be fine.

Also, my ~620cc injectors at 3bar actually pump ~730cc at 60psi (NB) which looks to me like even with BSFC of 0.6 and 40% extra needed for corn, I should be good to like 270 BHP.



Am I totally missing something here?
Attached Thumbnails
E85 Checklist-screenshot20150427at65349pm_p755someev.png  
mlev is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-27-2015, 10:02 PM   #14
Senior Member
iTrader: (1)
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Columbia, SC
Posts: 1,342
Total Cats: 78
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mlev View Post
I'm not saying you're lying, but

Don't they flow like 630cc at 3bar?
Someone else correct me if I'm wrong, but since the NB1 is returnless, the FPR does everything relative to to atmospheric pressure and not manifold pressure. So you effectively lower the fuel rail pressure as you increase boost, as as far as the engine is concerned it is relative to the manifold pressure.

At least, that is my interpretation into this.
Schuyler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2015, 12:11 AM   #15
Senior Member
Thread Starter
iTrader: (5)
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 659
Total Cats: 66
Default

No, you're right in that, I just assumed that since I'm good now I'd be good by going up 40%.

Except I just did a data logging run and I'm at 89.9% duty cycle at redline. So I'm not fine.

**** ******* dammit.

Granted, I'm at 11.1:1 and I'll probably go to the equivalent of 12.5:1 on corn, and part of the issue may be the stock pump not maintaining pressure to redline.. So I'd probably be okay. But only barely. And I don't want to be barely OK.

Fuuuuuuuu. Looks like 800s or so for me..
mlev is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-28-2015, 02:20 AM   #16
Senior Member
iTrader: (1)
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Columbia, SC
Posts: 1,342
Total Cats: 78
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mlev View Post
No, you're right in that, I just assumed that since I'm good now I'd be good by going up 40%.

Except I just did a data logging run and I'm at 89.9% duty cycle at redline. So I'm not fine.

**** ******* dammit.

Granted, I'm at 11.1:1 and I'll probably go to the equivalent of 12.5:1 on corn, and part of the issue may be the stock pump not maintaining pressure to redline.. So I'd probably be okay. But only barely. And I don't want to be barely OK.

Fuuuuuuuu. Looks like 800s or so for me..
haha yeah, that's what I meant. I was suprised the duty cycles i'm running. I plan on just adding a RR-FPR and switching to returned if I want to go e85 though. Enough people seem to have issues with the returnless system anyway it seems worth it.
Schuyler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-29-2015, 01:58 AM   #17
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Chicagoland
Posts: 160
Total Cats: 2
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 18psi View Post
has anyone got a flex fuel setup successfully running?
like completely , 100%, tested/tried/true no hiccups no issues for a significant amount of time?
I'd like to see that setup/tune if possible.
I had it setup using a Proefi years ago worked great and car drove like stock.
natedawg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-29-2015, 03:05 AM   #18
Elite Member
 
codrus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Santa Clara, CA
Posts: 3,877
Total Cats: 344
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mlev View Post
No, you're right in that, I just assumed that since I'm good now I'd be good by going up 40%.

Except I just did a data logging run and I'm at 89.9% duty cycle at redline. So I'm not fine.

**** ******* dammit.

Granted, I'm at 11.1:1 and I'll probably go to the equivalent of 12.5:1 on corn, and part of the issue may be the stock pump not maintaining pressure to redline.. So I'd probably be okay. But only barely. And I don't want to be barely OK.

Fuuuuuuuu. Looks like 800s or so for me..
GT500s are 570 cc/min, right? That's about 300rwhp on gasoline, and a lot less (220 rwhp?) on E85. How much power are aiming for?

IMHO the right injectors to get if you're even thinking of E85 are ID1000s.

--Ian
codrus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-29-2015, 08:08 AM   #19
Elite Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: OKC, OK
Posts: 2,640
Total Cats: 76
Default

Don't think it was mentioned here, but on the BRZ forums there have been lots of BOA's that show some oils don't play well with E85.

So an oil designed to handle E85 is a good idea as well. I'm getting ready to put Motul 8100 in my BRZ.
z31maniac is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-29-2015, 10:04 AM   #20
Murderator
iTrader: (76)
 
18psi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 36,174
Total Cats: 2,575
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by natedawg View Post
I had it setup using a Proefi years ago worked great and car drove like stock.
lol
I'm talking about MS. Isn't the pro-efi like a 2500 ecu?
Quote:
Originally Posted by z31maniac View Post
Don't think it was mentioned here, but on the BRZ forums there have been lots of BOA's that show some oils don't play well with E85.

So an oil designed to handle E85 is a good idea as well. I'm getting ready to put Motul 8100 in my BRZ.
proper catch can/aos is what's needed IMO

BTW op, you're still on the gt2554 right? If so, I think you will probably be fine with the gt500's. That turbo isn't going to make much more than 220-240whp even if you crank it up.
Also the whole "flows more at xxx bar" thing might not be as straightforward as it seems. I'm fiddling around with some ID725's right now, and they are technically supposed ot flow 830cc @ 60psib.....Well, plugging in values for 831cc is not even close, the car runs super lean and just doesn't like it. Plugging in values for 725 it runs fine. My point is that however it is they test the injectors (I hear it's from pumping solution inside a machine/flow tester), it doesn't really reflect how they seem to respond in real life. And yes, my dead time and battery voltage compensations are dialed in per specs.

I know with other cars too, I always had to scale injectors a little lower than advertised for them to work right (like ID1000's on a subaru usually scale to 890-920cc)

Last edited by 18psi; 04-29-2015 at 10:23 AM.
18psi is offline   Reply With Quote
 
 
Reply

Related Topics
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
"Chimney Ethanol" E100 MiataGarage Engine Performance 5 09-30-2015 12:04 AM
1.8, C30-74 Rotrex, 9psi, 235WHP/190WTQ (E85) Lincoln Logs Dynos and timesheets 4 09-23-2015 01:26 PM
1991 Turbo Miata partout tottestad Miata parts for sale/trade 18 09-14-2015 08:52 PM
Is E-85 worth it N/A? Stealth97 ECUs and Tuning 22 08-31-2015 05:38 PM
Polished Turbo from ebay with extras! theshdwconspracy Miata parts for sale/trade 0 08-29-2015 07:48 PM


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:59 AM.