Greddy/BEGi-S vs. ITBs - Page 3 - Miata Turbo Forum - Boost cars, acquire cats.

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Old 12-06-2007, 03:00 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by brgracer View Post
Back on topic, now that the OP has ruled out ITBs due to cost, I think all the smart people would recommend the BEGi-S. In a nutshell, it's much better engineered and provided a solid upgrade path for more power.
Do they crack much? I haven't seen a LOT of issues with the FM mani (a begi one anyway, really), but I wonder how his stuff is.
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Old 12-06-2007, 03:05 PM   #42
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Somebody should post a thread about this on CR.net. Same title, same first post, and see what the responses are.
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Old 12-06-2007, 03:06 PM   #43
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How about you prove yours first?

Honestly... bothering with ITBs on anything but a fully built motor just is silly. It's one of the, if not the last, steps to finishing off a nice NA motor.
I dont have to prove anything because I did not make a statement. The burden of proof is the responsibility of the one who makes the statement, doesnt it?
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Old 12-06-2007, 03:20 PM   #44
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I dont have to prove anything because I did not make a statement. The burden of proof is the responsibility of the one who makes the statement, doesnt it?
please stfu.
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Old 12-06-2007, 03:22 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by AbeFM View Post
I think you totally CAN get improvements running them, even with a turbo. Put them into a 5'x5'x5' pressurized box, you WILL see improvements over a regular turbo mani.
do the same with a 70mm TB, replace the TBs with runners....think you'll see any difference? I doubt it.

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Originally Posted by AbeFM View Post
Do they crack much? I haven't seen a LOT of issues with the FM mani (a begi one anyway, really), but I wonder how his stuff is.
not the cast iron guys, if they do Corky wants you to send to him, he'll repair them and send them back out. but i don't think he's seen more than one or two of his cracked.
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Old 12-06-2007, 03:23 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by AbeFM View Post
How's this for an idea: Computer controlled, RPM/flow dependant ITBs?
Ironically, that's exactly how my SV650 is set up. There are two throttle plates in each barrel- one mechanically linked to the grip, and a second one controlled by a stepper motor driven by the ECU. The bike obviously doesn't have flowmeters or MAP- just TPS, baro, and temperature. It is an astoundingly smooth and responsive engine. Not nearly as powerful as a GSX of equivalent displacement, but the torque "curve" is damn near a horizontal line from 3,000 to 10,000.
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Old 12-06-2007, 03:23 PM   #47
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Do they crack much? I haven't seen a LOT of issues with the FM mani (a begi one anyway, really), but I wonder how his stuff is.
I've also seen a handfull of cracked FM manifolds. I know one turbo track car in particular who's been through a few.
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Old 12-06-2007, 03:40 PM   #48
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please stfu.
please say that to yourself
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Old 12-06-2007, 03:47 PM   #49
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You are asking that question on a turbo board and I am pretty sure you'll get votes for an itb setup. obviously, i am being facetious.
I've got an itb setup and I do love the throttle response. I tracked the car a weekend or two ago and I was amazed with the throttle response. I was revving the 1.6 all the way to 8000rpm and waiting for it to blowup but it didnt...lol...An itb setup will involve more work and money. I've got my next project going that involves a 99 head mated to an 01 shortblock. I wont be staying with the 1.6 much longer. Money is money and if you have it, youll spend it.
My last band aid to get power is forced induction....i would probably plumb a turbo with my itb setup.


If I was building a 1000hp+ turbo road race motor, had an unlimited budget and was restricted to 1.6L I would definately be looking at ITBs. But mainly for off boost throttle response, and becasue with the unlimited budget the entire motor would be blueprinted to completely new specs and need to match the cam and exhaust manifold.

For what they are and what they get the factory manifold has proven to be more than adequate, and capapable of producing more power NA in CSP trim, and at the levels most of us intend to play at.



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I'd like to see empirical data on your part to prove your statement that I WON'T receive benefit from it.
Some evidence based statements from posters on this board would certainly be a treat for me.
Asking us to prove you won't recive benefit is like asking us to prove to you there isn't a god. You've got your **** backwards, you can't prove something doesn't exist, you can only prove that it does. Making the burdon of proof fall on your shoulders.

So go ahead and start proving to us that there is actual benefit to ITBs on a turbo miata.
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Old 12-06-2007, 03:51 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by Joe Perez View Post
Ironically, that's exactly how my SV650 is set up. There are two throttle plates in each barrel- one mechanically linked to the grip, and a second one controlled by a stepper motor driven by the ECU. The bike obviously doesn't have flowmeters or MAP- just TPS, baro, and temperature. It is an astoundingly smooth and responsive engine. Not nearly as powerful as a GSX of equivalent displacement, but the torque "curve" is damn near a horizontal line from 3,000 to 10,000.
sounds like a well sorted out alpha-n configuration. I read somewhere that one TVR model uses alpha-n for fueling.

Im not after a dyno queen that will crank out x amount horsepower and torque. Im after a well balanced driving car that I can abuse on the track.
I dont mind exotic setups and I dont mind performing experiments to backup claims.
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Old 12-06-2007, 03:53 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Perez View Post
Ironically, that's exactly how my SV650 is set up. There are two throttle plates in each barrel- one mechanically linked to the grip, and a second one controlled by a stepper motor driven by the ECU. The bike obviously doesn't have flowmeters or MAP- just TPS, baro, and temperature. It is an astoundingly smooth and responsive engine. Not nearly as powerful as a GSX of equivalent displacement, but the torque "curve" is damn near a horizontal line from 3,000 to 10,000.
The stated reason Suzy went to those was torque was too instant so they have the computer control the maxium rate of change of the throttle plates. What I don't get is why they don't just let the computer run everything - a real die by wire system

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Originally Posted by Braineack View Post
do the same with a 70mm TB, replace the TBs with runners....think you'll see any difference? I doubt it.
Oh, well, if you're talking noticeable differences, all bets are off. :-P
But there's a lot to be said for intake manifold design. Telling yourself it doesn't matter is giving up a lot. It might not be worth the trouble, but it would buy you something, I'm sure of it. Who here hasn't seen where they'll put a leaner injector in one cylender from the factory because the manifold sucks? Only with modern CAD and/or lots of flowbenching can you get it right. In fact, that's how you make a manifold, you flow bench it with individual flow meters on each port. Then you look at how it changes with RPM (which is tied to the cams and to manifold pressure, humidity, etc) and you choose the best compromise, after deciding if you want a maxium horsepower peak or a flatter torque curve.

Adjusting those factors individually would help. Just run of the mill ITB's would only let you make up for deficiencies in the manifold design. But independently operated ones would completely let you maintain even flow across all cylenders at all times. Like the SV, you could have your total flow throttle in the front, and just a small adjustable restriction on the inlets.


So, someone talk Joe into letting me drive his bike. :-) Maybe I'll let him drive mine but then he'll rave twice as much about how much better the system is.
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Old 12-06-2007, 03:59 PM   #52
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Hahahahhaahhah

Sorry bros but I'm not what you say.."emo."

My music is on the other side of the spectrum...metal y0!
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Old 12-06-2007, 04:05 PM   #53
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Hahahahhaahhah

Sorry bros but I'm not what you say.."emo."

My music is on the other side of the spectrum...metal y0!
we don't need your sausage fest here.
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Old 12-06-2007, 04:06 PM   #54
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So, why are you here then?
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Old 12-06-2007, 04:08 PM   #55
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Originally Posted by AbeFM View Post
How's this for an idea: Computer controlled, RPM/flow dependant ITBs?
They already have that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variabl...ntake_Manifold
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Old 12-06-2007, 04:10 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by AbeFM View Post
What I don't get is why they don't just let the computer run everything - a real die by wire system
Like you said, if the stepper motor decides to crap out while wide open, I can still close the plates that matter. It'd be an interesting experiment though to disconnect the motor and open the secondaries up, then see how it rides. I'm sure the bike would throw a CEL though. (what an odd concept...)

Quote:
So, someone talk Joe into letting me drive his bike. :-) Maybe I'll let him drive mine but then he'll rave twice as much about how much better the system is.
Please, don't tempt me. My upstairs neighbor's son just bought a GSXR750 last month, and then immediately got deployed back to Afghanistan. The bike is parked in the garage next to mine, and the neighbor keeps trying to convince me to ride it to work once or twice a month to keep it limbered up. I've thus far gotten away with the excuse that the color clashes with my helmet, and that the shifter is too small for my big ole' size 14 boots. (I had to modifiy the shifter on my SV to lengthen it so I'd fit)

But it is tempting.
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Old 12-06-2007, 04:14 PM   #57
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You should ride it. It's not nearly as comfortable as your SV, but so much more powerful. I had a GSXR750 for a while, and while I decided that it wasn't for me, I'm glad that I got the chance to pilot it for a while.
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Old 12-06-2007, 05:47 PM   #58
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Originally Posted by Saml01 View Post
Oh, yeah, except, that's not what I was talking about. It's a step in the right direction, but again, it's all map based. And, I'm not talking about increasing velocity or swirl, I'm talking about balancing between cylinders. Just cause it's a valve in the intake doesn't mean you know what it does. :-) The other issue about Mazda's set up specifically, it only adds a couple (hopefully broad) peaks. Now, a sliding, variable length runner would rock. :-)


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Originally Posted by Joe Perez View Post
Like you said, if the stepper motor decides to crap out while wide open, I can still close the plates that matter. It'd be an interesting experiment though to disconnect the motor and open the secondaries up, then see how it rides. I'm sure the bike would throw a CEL though. (what an odd concept...)

But it is tempting.
Heh, well, I didn't mean the Kawi. I meant this useless toy:



Anyway, that's down for a carb-change that never happened, but if this miata works out I think I'll microsquirt it. It'd be weird to have boost control on there, but it would be very useful! I always figured the gsx-r750 would be about an ultimate bike. Then again, I've ridden some modern sport-600s and the lack of torque till 50,000 rpm is kinda weird. But it's hard to imagine the 750 isn't at least ok.

Anyway, I'd be really curious to know how it runs that way. Let me know.
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Old 12-06-2007, 05:58 PM   #59
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I really hope you don't ride that.
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Old 12-06-2007, 06:01 PM   #60
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Not only do I, I even have a couple ridiculous get-ups I wear. Extra special dork clothes.
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