Here we go again. Morons at that MSM forum - Page 2 - Miata Turbo Forum - Boost cars, acquire cats.

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Old 02-24-2009, 04:46 PM   #21
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Good lord, the way that guy threw around "I have 3 atoms because I spend my money wisely" bullshit.

Nouveau riche b.s.
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Old 02-24-2009, 05:00 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by msydnor View Post
It's not necessary, it a great tool for tuning, but not necessary. Up until a few years back, dynos cost too much to be a cost effective tool for tuning for the average joe. How do you think people did it before then?
Your opinion on what's necessary is just that, an opinion.

My god there are some morons on that site.
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Old 02-24-2009, 05:03 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by msydnor View Post
It's not necessary, it a great tool for tuning, but not necessary.
AAAAAAAARRGH! we all know that. hell, we stated that Paul has done basically all of his tuning on the street. He uses the dyno to have solid answers on if his mods are effective or not.

the fact remains that the OP is expected horsepower numbers that he will not obtain. Probably not even with hours of dyno tuning to extract every last bit of power.
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Old 02-24-2009, 05:20 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by budget racer View Post
AAAAAAAARRGH! we all know that. hell, we stated that Paul has done basically all of his tuning on the street. He uses the dyno to have solid answers on if his mods are effective or not.

the fact remains that the OP is expected horsepower numbers that he will not obtain. Probably not even with hours of dyno tuning to extract every last bit of power.
He does not argue the dyno is a useful tool, and he also acknowledges that the kit may not make that much power. He stated... if it does not, it's no big deal, so WTF are you arguing about? why is he a moron?
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Old 02-24-2009, 05:23 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by patsmx5 View Post
Your opinion on what's necessary is just that, an opinion.

My god there are some morons on that site.
Actually it's a fact because I've seen it done many many times. How long have you been building hot rods? We you wrenching in the 80 or early 90s when you had to save up just to afford a session on a dyno? There is no argunment here that the dyno is a ver usefull tool, but that does not make it necessary. What you are trying to accomplish is what determines of it's actually necessary. And you call them moron?
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Old 02-24-2009, 05:42 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by msydnor View Post
why is he a moron?
Hmmmm.......i don't recall calling anybody a moron. oh yeah, that's right....it's because i didn't.

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Old 02-24-2009, 06:00 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by msydnor View Post
Actually it's a fact because I've seen it done many many times. How long have you been building hot rods? We you wrenching in the 80 or early 90s when you had to save up just to afford a session on a dyno? There is no argunment here that the dyno is a ver usefull tool, but that does not make it necessary. What you are trying to accomplish is what determines of it's actually necessary. And you call them moron?
You can not tune everything on the street as well as you can on a dyno.
FACT.

Perhaps your definition of tune is not the same as mine. Sure you can get a decent tune on the street. But it won't necessarily be optimal. Some changes in the tune have small effects that are not easily recognized by a wideband or your butt-dyno, or even on a track. You can get close without a dyno, sure. But it's your opinion that close is good enough. I can't say I've ever seen someone tune a spark map for MBT on a boosted motor any other way than using a dyno. There line for error is small and any other means of recording the changes will introduce to much error to gather meaningful results.

Anyways, please stop arguing with me. I stay away from that site because I don't like dealing with morons with MSM's.
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Old 02-24-2009, 06:20 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by patsmx5 View Post
You can not tune everything on the street as well as you can on a dyno.
FACT.

Perhaps your definition of tune is not the same as mine. Sure you can get a decent tune on the street. But it won't necessarily be optimal. Some changes in the tune have small effects that are not easily recognized by a wideband or your butt-dyno, or even on a track. You can get close without a dyno, sure. But it's your opinion that close is good enough. I can't say I've ever seen someone tune a spark map for MBT on a boosted motor any other way than using a dyno. There line for error is small and any other means of recording the changes will introduce to much error to gather meaningful results.

Anyways, please stop arguing with me. I stay away from that site because I don't like dealing with morons with MSM's.
FACT...Close is good enough for a lot of people. That is not an opinion it is a fact. Fact, I understand tuning, and I understand what can be done on a dyno vs tuning on the track. "Fact" there are people that can tune on the track and in many cases, end up with better results. Fact...you still fail to acknowledge that the dyno is not necessary to tune a car, which is what was stated, is it optimal? IMO yes, necessary, no. There are people that have been building and tuning cars far longer than you've been tinkering on your miata, that have been tuning with EFI for years, I guess you could tell some of them they are idiots. You have not been in the car game long enough to know every ******* thing. It takes a moron to think he knows everything and can't accept that his way is not the only way.
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Old 02-24-2009, 06:26 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by msydnor View Post
FACT...Close is good enough for a lot of people. That is not an opinion it is a fact. Fact, I understand tuning, and I understand what can be done on a dyno vs tuning on the track. "Fact" there are people that can tune on the track and in many cases, end up with better results. Fact...you still fail to acknowledge that the dyno is not necessary to tune a car, which is what was stated, is it optimal? IMO yes, necessary, no. There are people that have been building and tuning cars far longer than you've been tinkering on your miata, that have been tuning with EFI for years, I guess you could tell some of them they are idiots. You have not been in the car game long enough to know every ******* thing. It takes a moron to think he knows everything and can't accept that his way is not the only way.
I have never tuned my car on a dyno. My ****'s tuned on the streets. Yeah it works, but it's not optimal. That's a fact. If close enough is good enough for you, fine. But you'll never know what you're missing if you don't dyno tune. It is necessary to get an optimal tune in my books. Whether you consider it necessary based on whether you consider an optimal tune necessary is not what I'm debating. My point is you can't go drive your car down the interstate and down the 1/4 mile and dial it in perfect.
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Old 02-24-2009, 06:29 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by msydnor View Post
"Fact" there are people that can tune on the track and in many cases, end up with better results.


Please elaborate. How about tuning spark maps for MBT? Or do you tune it so it doesn't detonate? How do you distinguish between them? And get better results at that? I'm all ears.
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Old 02-24-2009, 06:40 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by patsmx5 View Post
Please elaborate. How about tuning spark maps for MBT? Or do you tune it so it doesn't detonate? How do you distinguish between them? And get better results at that? I'm all ears.
I already did, you're just ******* ignorant. Have you ever been to the track and see guys runnning in a class with similar setups? A guy is a tad bit behind, he whips out the trusty laptop, make a few practice runs, does a little tuning, and next thing ya know, he's up front? The guy who can only tune on the dyno has to wait another day to get tuned again. He returns to the track, maybe he made up the difference, maybe not, but that ****** that can tune on the fly seems to always be able to come up with something to get his **** around the track faster. If you race, it's all about how fast you get around the track, not how much RWHP you make on the dyno. Bottom line genius, the dyno is a great tool, very useful, but it is not the end all to be all, and there are other ways. And close is good enough for a lot of people.
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Old 02-24-2009, 06:54 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by msydnor View Post
I already did, you're just ******* ignorant. Have you ever been to the track and see guys runnning in a class with similar setups? A guy is a tad bit behind, he whips out the trusty laptop, make a few practice runs, does a little tuning, and next thing ya know, he's up front? The guy who can only tune on the dyno has to wait another day to get tuned again. He returns to the track, maybe he made up the difference, maybe not, but that ****** that can tune on the fly seems to always be able to come up with something to get his **** around the track faster. If you race, it's all about how fast you get around the track, not how much RWHP you make on the dyno. Bottom line genius, the dyno is a great tool, very useful, but it is not the end all to be all, and there are other ways. And close is good enough for a lot of people.
Kinda like seeing a guy make changes and then he has the faster car, only to blow it up 5 laps before the end? Like maybe he got a bit carried away with timing and had a bit of silent knock but didn't no it? Let's agree to disagree. I'm an ignorant tuner that doesn't know anything about tuning (this is indeed correct BTW) and you're a moron with a MSM.
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Old 02-24-2009, 07:02 PM   #33
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is this discussion really happening? Holy ****, I look smarter every day on here.

I put my car on the dyno, tuned spark for MBT in each cell, and whatever AFR specifically for each cell. If you can feel 4whp, 3wtq, and hear whisps of detonation in a racecar with a helmet on, I'm impressed. Its more likely that whoever is tuning on the track is a ******* moron, and I'm faster than he is, and make more power, torque, and testosterone.
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Old 02-24-2009, 07:19 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by msydnor View Post
FACT...Close is good enough for a lot of people. That is not an opinion it is a fact. Fact, I understand tuning, and I understand what can be done on a dyno vs tuning on the track. "Fact" there are people that can tune on the track and in many cases, end up with better results. Fact...you still fail to acknowledge that the dyno is not necessary to tune a car, which is what was stated, is it optimal? IMO yes, necessary, no. There are people that have been building and tuning cars far longer than you've been tinkering on your miata, that have been tuning with EFI for years, I guess you could tell some of them they are idiots. You have not been in the car game long enough to know every ******* thing. It takes a moron to think he knows everything and can't accept that his way is not the only way.
They still use the dyno to fine tune it. My boss has been tuning EFI for 18yrs, and he does street and dyno tunes, but to get the most out of an engine, you need BOTH. You need the street to tune it how it REALLY DRIVES, and then the dyno to wokr on the areas that you won't necessarily use on the street without having to take un-necessary risks. You can also load up an area to get it tuned as perfectly as possible, you can't get that on the street. People who tune just using one method or the other are missing ALOT in their tune. Just cause someone is content with a subpar tune doesn't mean it's a good tune, just means they don't know any better. Sadly, that is how alot of grassroots race teams do it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by msydnor View Post
I already did, you're just ******* ignorant. Have you ever been to the track and see guys runnning in a class with similar setups? A guy is a tad bit behind, he whips out the trusty laptop, make a few practice runs, does a little tuning, and next thing ya know, he's up front? The guy who can only tune on the dyno has to wait another day to get tuned again. He returns to the track, maybe he made up the difference, maybe not, but that ****** that can tune on the fly seems to always be able to come up with something to get his **** around the track faster. If you race, it's all about how fast you get around the track, not how much RWHP you make on the dyno. Bottom line genius, the dyno is a great tool, very useful, but it is not the end all to be all, and there are other ways. And close is good enough for a lot of people.
The dyno isn't just for a peak hp number. It's a tool to better tune the mid-range and make more power under the curve. You can't "feel" that on the street or track. you can keep adding timing and pulling fuel, but unless you run it on the dyno, you'll never be able to find the most power with the most safety.
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Old 02-24-2009, 07:21 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by msydnor View Post
Actually it's a fact because I've seen it done many many times. How long have you been building hot rods? We you wrenching in the 80 or early 90s when you had to save up just to afford a session on a dyno? There is no argunment here that the dyno is a ver usefull tool, but that does not make it necessary. What you are trying to accomplish is what determines of it's actually necessary. And you call them moron?
The internet doesnt work as well as encyclopedias and books! ARGH!

Welcome to the future. I do a research paper in a quarter of the time you did in the 80's and my resources are twice as good.
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Old 02-24-2009, 07:27 PM   #36
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The dyno isn't just for a peak hp number.
I love explaining this to the dallas supercharger crew. They have a hard time justifying $-per-peak-whp.

I remember years ago, before I really knew the minute details on tuning that I know today, "we" took Yojo's black GTI to Bryce and it made like 310whp at 12psi. We left at a lower MAP, 275whp, and the car felt like a rocket in comparison.

I also remember closing billy T's wastegate shut and blowing up the turbo on a 1000 mile car, lol. Ah yes, the glory days of "Kentech."

Bryce does something on the dyno where his cars are unreasonably fast for the #'s they make. (yojo's gti, jeremy's gti, dirty's 1st gen dsm, the blue evo)
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Old 02-24-2009, 07:39 PM   #37
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Do you ******* morons read? I said, DYNO TUNING IS GOOD!!!!. What you ******* asshats don't get, or could not or refuse to comprehend is, some people, especially those that don't race for a ******* living is fine with close!!!! I am one of those in "SOME CASES" case in point. My MSM is a street driven car, wont likely go to the track for anything other than some fun laps at VIR. In this case, autotune and a few tweaks is good enough for what I use the car for. Could I get more power on the dyno with a good tuner..YES!!!! but I don't care because I don't need it, it's not a concern for me, and I don't give a ****, I have other faster cars that are my priority. The current power levels are fine for what I am doing with the car. The guy you ******* are calling moron has an atom (or 3) which is where his priorities are, his MSM is an after thouoght. I also find it funny that some of you stupid ************* get a ******* miata and finally figure out how to turn a wrench or two, and all of a sudden you are automotive geniuses. Hustler, you should really STFU, you don't know **** with that POS raggady *** **** you have..Is this you first build? Did you see me say anything about "feeling 3,4,5 HP, NO!, and if you can't ******* here detonation you need to go back to ground zero. As far as people tuning at the track being morons, there are a lot of morons around, a lot of people tune at the track. Maybe you should actually go to a ******* track you ******* moron. Have you ever put togther any other car other than a ******* miata? Honda's civics don't count.
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Old 02-24-2009, 07:49 PM   #38
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someone suggest he run this spark mtable:
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Old 02-24-2009, 07:49 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by naarleven View Post
The internet doesnt work as well as encyclopedias and books! ARGH!

Welcome to the future. I do a research paper in a quarter of the time you did in the 80's and my resources are twice as good.
I've been in the future for quit some time, just because I'm in the future does not mean I abandon the past. Your reseach is not twice as good...just more efficent. I'm actually doing a research paper now between arguing with you morons. I usually spend a little more time on my research than many of the youngsters I go to school with. Why, becuase I cross reference my information with **** other than the internet because there is just as much misinformation out there as there is good infornmation. My stupid old *** still read books on occasion. WTF does that have to do with this conversation?
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Old 02-24-2009, 07:51 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by hustler View Post
I love explaining this to the dallas supercharger crew. They have a hard time justifying $-per-peak-whp.

I remember years ago, before I really knew the minute details on tuning that I know today, "we" took Yojo's black GTI to Bryce and it made like 310whp at 12psi. We left at a lower MAP, 275whp, and the car felt like a rocket in comparison.

I also remember closing billy T's wastegate shut and blowing up the turbo on a 1000 mile car, lol. Ah yes, the glory days of "Kentech."

Bryce does something on the dyno where his cars are unreasonably fast for the #'s they make. (yojo's gti, jeremy's gti, dirty's 1st gen dsm, the blue evo)

Wow, a whole 310 hp....
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