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Old 12-01-2008, 08:29 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
I used to rev my stock sleeved, stock head, turbocharged to 600hp LS/VTEC 1.8 Engine to over 9500rpm with a set of Rods similar to our M-Tuned Miata Rods with a stock Oil Pump.

I've also seen 220 hp with almost all stock parts using a B20 Block/Type R head with aftermarket valve spring. This motor lived most of its like between 7000-9500rpm.

Honda motors are great!
Is it still alive? I didn't end up LS/Vtecing my integra when I burnt a valve cause I heard over and over that the LS bottom end just didn't last at those high rpms.
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Old 12-01-2008, 08:42 PM   #22
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Show me an undersquare 1.8ish I4 that pumps out the power at high revs.
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Originally Posted by patsmx5 View Post
That's a honda.
And? You asked for it and it was delivered. What's this about it not being "smooth", also? I don't think you've driven many B, F, or K powered vehicles, mild or wild, based on that claim.

FWIW - my best friend's 255bhp n/a B18C1 was smooth as silk and had no driveability (sp?) issues.
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Old 12-01-2008, 08:57 PM   #23
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And? You asked for it and it was delivered. What's this about it not being "smooth", also? I don't think you've driven many B, F, or K powered vehicles, mild or wild, based on that claim.

FWIW - my best friend's 255bhp n/a B18C1 was smooth as silk and had no driveability (sp?) issues.
Uh, for real? Was that a 100% B18 or Ls/Crvtec hybrid?
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Old 12-01-2008, 09:02 PM   #24
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Too much to list, but there wasn't much OE Honda left when he was done. What I can remember is:

US GSR engine (from '94 Integra)
C5 crankshaft
sleeved to around 2000cc
Crower rods and camshafts
CP Pistons
etc. etc. etc. etc...
lots of headwork from DFE just outside Jacksonville, assembled by DFE also.
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Old 12-01-2008, 09:08 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by kotomile View Post
Too much to list, but there wasn't much OE Honda left when he was done. What I can remember is:

US GSR engine (from '94 Integra)
C5 crankshaft
sleeved to around 2000cc
Crower rods and camshafts
CP Pistons
etc. etc. etc. etc...
lots of headwork from DFE just outside Jacksonville, assembled by DFE also.
sounds bonerific and very expensive.

My old Integra that I gave to my girlfriend is about ready for a new bottom end of some kind. I've had many wet dreams about a wild honda build.
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Old 12-01-2008, 09:16 PM   #26
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so what is 7000 rpm about the max that you will see power? can you not port out the heads enough and introduce a larger IM to see a gain by turning the **** out of the motor? (not to mention solid lifters, stiffer springs, better cam) Is it the 90* turn the air charge has to take when entering the head vs. the honda's rather straight shot into the cylinder?
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Old 12-01-2008, 09:24 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kotomile View Post
And? You asked for it and it was delivered. What's this about it not being "smooth", also? I don't think you've driven many B, F, or K powered vehicles, mild or wild, based on that claim.

FWIW - my best friend's 255bhp n/a B18C1 was smooth as silk and had no driveability (sp?) issues.
Yeah, honda can build a badass cylinder head. I won't say they build badass bottom ends though. That's arguable. But they've had cylinder heads figured out for 20 years.

The "not being smooth" comment was in reference to a BP engine, not a honda. I don't know **** about honda's if that's not obvious. All I know is they suck, have no torque, and bend valves when they break a TB. But a BP is not a smooth I4 by any means. No balance shafts, shitty rod ratio, undersquare. Basically the worst combination possible for a high RPM engine.

Trying to make our engine (read miata engine, not honda....) into a 8500 RPM screamer is retarded. Kinda like building a N/A motor when you could turbo it. Stupid on so many levels. And even if you drop 20K in custom **** and mad fab work/custom head work, etc to somehow make it hold torque to 8K, it would vibrate and shake so much and sound so shitty I would cringe every time I rev'd it that high. It's just not meant to be.
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Old 12-01-2008, 09:28 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by patsmx5 View Post
Yeah, honda can build a badass cylinder head. I won't say they build badass bottom ends though. That's arguable. But they've had cylinder heads figured out for 20 years.

The "not being smooth" comment was in reference to a BP engine, not a honda. I don't know **** about honda's if that's not obvious. All I know is they suck, have no torque, and bend valves when they break a TB.
That is going to be a tough couple of claims for you to provide evidence against.

By "they suck" what do you mean? I cannot think of many ways that honda engines suck other than the fact that you dont like interference engines...
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Old 12-01-2008, 09:39 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by wayne_curr View Post
That is going to be a tough couple of claims for you to provide evidence against.

By "they suck" what do you mean? I cannot think of many ways that honda engines suck other than the fact that you dont like interference engines...
Aluminum block. Weak.
Sleeves that crack and come loose.
shity stock rods
shity stock pistons
interference engine
distributor for spark
oil pump gears pressed on crankshaft like our miatas engine

Some engines take to boost better than others. Honda's would be on the bottom of my list of tough engines.

I'm ignorant when it comes to hondas, so I don't need you to tell me that a b35593zz2 honda is good for 3344 HP on stock internals. I'm just saying that most stock honda's are weak in the tough department.

And besides, what's more fun to drive: A car that RELIABLY makes 250+ RWHP or a car that can make 200 FWHP somewhat reliably, but 220whp is pushing it, with less torque down low?

Thread drift like woah.
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Old 12-01-2008, 09:40 PM   #30
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Thread drift like woah.
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Old 12-02-2008, 12:27 AM   #31
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I miss my '01 Prelude...no mods, just SI blue, blk lthr int. Was my 1st "new" car and therefore I babied the hell out of..

All this Honda talk took me back for a miunte...











The again, 2100lbs+RWD+boost = SEXXX
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Old 12-02-2008, 01:36 AM   #32
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I had a Summit Racing Turbo Muffler on my Altima for the longest time


install your turbo and it wont be loud anymore.
Mine got so damn quiet...I love it.
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Old 12-02-2008, 04:11 AM   #33
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I had a Honda H22 that lived at ~8500rpm... until I spun some bearings. then another H22, until it threw a timing belt and kicked the *** of 15 valves. I guess maybe the B18 would be different being a smaller engine. Then again my H22 did have 265k miles on it when I gave it hell, and it held up for a long while.

In my Miata however, I wouldnt go over redline, and even then, I dont hit redline that much. Thats still n/a though, maybe with the turbo I will change my mind, but it just doesnt feel good up that high to me.
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Old 12-02-2008, 09:41 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by l_bader View Post
This is the Dyno Sheet on a naturally aspirated built '97 1.8L block married to a '99 head. 1mm oversized intake and exhaust valves, head work, 1mm over-bore pistons, opened oil journals, balanced/knife-edged crank/flywheel/pressure-plate. - About the only thing not done was installing stiffer valve springs to prevent float about 7500 rpm.

Please note the definite downturn in torque above 5500 rpm.

- L
Thanks for the data. Do you know if he went with aftermarket cams in order to shift the power band a bit?

I am glad that this thread getting a lot of attention but let me put forth an argument for why it would be nice to have an engine that has the ability to safely rev to say 8500. I am designing my car around the purpose of road racing. By road racing I mean a road race course. With this in mind I will be going with a laggy turbo to produce higher power levels at the top end of the bp4w operating range. That is not the entire reason for being able to rev the engine to 8500 safely. I know that the most efficient way to win a drag race as far as power is concerned is to target specific shift points for each gear. This can be done by matching gear ratios with a dyno sheet. In a road race however there may be a situation when you are coming to a turn, run out of rev room and can't warrant the time to upshift and then downshift to match the gear with the corner. Also there is the case when you are in a turn and run out of revs midway through the turn.

I believe this is a valid reason for safely extending the rev range for the bp.
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Old 12-02-2008, 09:51 AM   #35
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Is it still alive? I didn't end up LS/Vtecing my integra when I burnt a valve cause I heard over and over that the LS bottom end just didn't last at those high rpms.
I sold it a year ago and it is still running strong.
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Old 12-02-2008, 11:33 AM   #36
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Just in case you didn't understand my previous post here is an example of figuring out shift points using a dynograph and gear ratios.
Attached Files
File Type: xls ubershift_Tib.xls (247.5 KB, 87 views)
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Old 12-02-2008, 11:57 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Boy View Post
Thanks for the data. Do you know if he went with aftermarket cams in order to shift the power band a bit?

I am glad that this thread getting a lot of attention but let me put forth an argument for why it would be nice to have an engine that has the ability to safely rev to say 8500. I am designing my car around the purpose of road racing. By road racing I mean a road race course. With this in mind I will be going with a laggy turbo to produce higher power levels at the top end of the bp4w operating range. That is not the entire reason for being able to rev the engine to 8500 safely. I know that the most efficient way to win a drag race as far as power is concerned is to target specific shift points for each gear. This can be done by matching gear ratios with a dyno sheet. In a road race however there may be a situation when you are coming to a turn, run out of rev room and can't warrant the time to upshift and then downshift to match the gear with the corner. Also there is the case when you are in a turn and run out of revs midway through the turn.

I believe this is a valid reason for safely extending the rev range for the bp.
Yeah, having more power and rev range helps you maximize torque at the wheels. I agree.

But you will be fighting a loosing battle trying to make power to 8500 RPMs. See your first post where you said " Yes, I know we don't produce loads of power at the top end but we could." I say, you can not.

Besides, there are other things you could do. Say you want to run a certain lap time. You could rev to say 8K and put say 300 ft*lbs to the rear wheels at 14 PSI. Or, rev to 7300 RPM, dial in some more boost, and do the same. The later will be more reliable. And faster.
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Old 12-02-2008, 12:02 PM   #38
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I used to rev my Drag car to 8100-8200 rpm. The largest tire I could fit was a 23.9" and therefore I was able to get a little more from each gear and avoid having to shift into 5th gear.

I found that my horsepower would stay quite flat until 8200rpm when I was in the 500hp range in my 1990 Miata. I'm looking forward to building myself a new engine and installing my billet Oil Pump gears for my 2000SE.

Revving over 7500rpm used to kill a lot of Oil Pumps, usually when I would get off the gas and unload the engine. Big Red Oil Pressure light was my friend.

Last edited by M-Tuned; 12-02-2008 at 12:28 PM.
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Old 12-02-2008, 12:06 PM   #39
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I found that my horsepower would stay quite flat until 8200rpm when I was in the 500hp range in my 1990 Miata.
You have said this before and I will once again call BS. Post some dyno plots of a BP 1.8 holding power flat to 8200 RPMs. I wanna see this. Only way I could see this happening is if you were adding more and more boost after 7K.
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Old 12-02-2008, 12:21 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by Big Boy View Post
Just in case you didn't understand my previous post here is an example of figuring out shift points using a dynograph and gear ratios.
my performance curves don't even really crossover...

Your Optimum Shift RPM!!!: 7,440 7,278 7,115 7,117


If I were you, I'd work on fixing your torque curve first and foremost. Dropping 65wtq from 4.9K to 6.9K is not cool.
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File Type: xls ubershift_forrealz.xls (202.0 KB, 68 views)
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