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Old 04-05-2011, 04:26 PM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nitrodann View Post
Lol, this will never go anywhere really. I have cams portwork solid lifters etc etc etc but i still have stock Im if that answers your question.

Dann
Wanna race?

If you have all that, you will go faster if you developed the induction. My personal opinion.

I never would have run what I do currently with a stock manny and throttle body.
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Old 04-05-2011, 04:38 PM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WonTon View Post
If you have ITBs that are 40mm, thats 160mm feeding the engine divided by 4. so technically you have the ability to feed more air into the engine and with short straight runners you get that supply faster.

you meant this:
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Old 04-05-2011, 06:27 PM   #83
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individual throttle bodies plus a plenum > one throttle body in front of the plenum.

imagine having big *** ports at high rpm and teenie high velocity ports at low rpm? mmm sweeeeet.
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Old 04-05-2011, 07:03 PM   #84
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Lets see if I can redeem myself! If your cruising at 3500 RPM, Thats about 58 Rotations per second, and about 116 strokes per second right? 2 strokes per rotation right? (Im rounding my numbers)

If you ask me, saying that one stroke pulling air through a 60mm TB is wrong givin the amount of air that can be pulled in the engine in ONE second depending on RPMs.
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Old 04-05-2011, 07:10 PM   #85
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Your cute.

Dann
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Old 04-05-2011, 07:18 PM   #86
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Your cute.

Dann
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Old 04-05-2011, 07:55 PM   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by y8s View Post
individual throttle bodies plus a plenum > one throttle body in front of the plenum.

imagine having big *** ports at high rpm and teenie high velocity ports at low rpm? mmm sweeeeet.
You bring up a very good point. The throttle body in front of the plenum is what will always cause a lower pressure inside a naturally aspirated intake tract than the air outside of the intake tract.

What do Indy Car, Prostock, and Moto GP all have in common? They are all unlimmited naturally aspirated racers, and they all have one throttle body per cylinder.

The only time I have seen a single throttle body in an unlimmited application, is turbo or supercharged drag cars. I think it is because the plenum has a pressure high enough to keep one runner from robbing another, and quick throttle response in not really important.......And I spend a lot of time at the drag strip.
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Old 04-05-2011, 08:01 PM   #88
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How much time do you spend driving your car down the street? I want to know about the daily driven characteristics of a setup like this. I under stand WOT performance, but what about cruising?
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Old 04-05-2011, 08:11 PM   #89
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I have found that cruising along on the street is great. I have had no drivability problems at all. When you crack the throttle it is way more responsive than stock. If you tune it correctly, you will be amazed at how hard it accelerates with part throttle. It make the experience quite nice.

It took a while to get rid of the dead spot when I floored it, but after fiddling with it, I got it to go away.
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Old 04-05-2011, 09:40 PM   #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by miata2fast View Post
You bring up a very good point. The throttle body in front of the plenum is what will always cause a lower pressure inside a naturally aspirated intake tract than the air outside of the intake tract.

What do Indy Car, Prostock, and Moto GP all have in common? They are all unlimmited naturally aspirated racers, and they all have one throttle body per cylinder.

The only time I have seen a single throttle body in an unlimmited application, is turbo or supercharged drag cars. I think it is because the plenum has a pressure high enough to keep one runner from robbing another, and quick throttle response in not really important.......And I spend a lot of time at the drag strip.
but still

if you could

wouldn't you?

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Old 04-05-2011, 10:38 PM   #91
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y8s, whose manifold is that? more specifically, the plenum?

-Greer
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Old 04-05-2011, 11:05 PM   #92
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it's a k series setup from hayward.

for a couple grand, you could have one too.

http://www.haywardperformance.com/intake_systems.php
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Old 04-05-2011, 11:10 PM   #93
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Not that much love, was hoping for a solid plenum supplier besides ross machine

-Greer
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Old 04-05-2011, 11:32 PM   #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WonTon View Post
Thats like saying they could have put a better intake on there or even a more free flowing exhaust. They cant cause they have to stick to certain standards. Im sure if they could have they would have slapped a begger displacement engine in there, but that would change the classing of the car. (Isnt there some kinda tax overseas based on your engine displacement?)
don't forget the lawyers and bean counters

Quote:
Originally Posted by VitaminD View Post
why would you spend all the money to set up ITB's when you could have a cheap satisfying turbo?


Quote:
Originally Posted by thirdgen View Post
Thanks a lot for your information.
My real big question comes with tuning. How would I tune an ITB setup with my MS2 which uses a MAP sensor? I would imagine the vacuum signal must be really sucky.
MS2 should have alpha N capability TPS/crank angle tuning and the "special" ITB stetting of blended speed density / alpha N

use a vacuum block to combine the 4 shitty signals into a somewhat useable single signal.
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Old 04-06-2011, 12:18 AM   #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by miata2fast View Post
If you put a vacuum gauge on a plenum of a normally aspirated car at WOT, is it going to be higher than the ambient outside air?
If you spend a LOT of time tuning runner lengths (intake and exhaust), port sizing/velocity, valve size/angle, and plenum size/design, you can get a motor with such good scavenging that it will produce positive manifold pressure. One of the S2000 motors (or both?) runs at more than 100% VE due to good tuning.

[/quoteI think that it helps alleviate the symptom tremendously, but does it truely completely eliminate it? [/quote]

Uh, yes. When the valve opens, you pull air from the plenum, which pulls from the throttle body (and now we're back to the 60mm vs. 40mm argument). The rest of the runners get the bouncing effect that Scooteroo was talking about.
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Old 04-06-2011, 12:22 AM   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WonTon View Post
Lets see if I can redeem myself! If your cruising at 3500 RPM, Thats about 58 Rotations per second, and about 116 strokes per second right? 2 strokes per rotation right? (Im rounding my numbers)

If you ask me, saying that one stroke pulling air through a 60mm TB is wrong givin the amount of air that can be pulled in the engine in ONE second depending on RPMs.
What the **** are you saying?
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Old 04-06-2011, 12:26 AM   #97
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We're going to add to our warning system. Not only will we have a grammar warning, but now WonTon will have a math warning.
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Old 04-06-2011, 12:44 AM   #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thirdgen View Post
How much time do you spend driving your car down the street? I want to know about the daily driven characteristics of a setup like this. I under stand WOT performance, but what about cruising?

I really dont think you do understand WOT performance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by miata2fast View Post
I have found that cruising along on the street is great. I have had no drivability problems at all. When you crack the throttle it is way more responsive than stock. If you tune it correctly, you will be amazed at how hard it accelerates with part throttle. It make the experience quite nice.

It took a while to get rid of the dead spot when I floored it, but after fiddling with it, I got it to go away.
I agree with everything that miata2fast just said, the only thing i would like to add to this is that due to the huge intake flow area you now have, a dyno plot would show that 3/4 throttle made equal or damn near close to WOT power, and also due to this huge intake flow area it might feel like only part throttle under your foot but I bet the vacuum is like 70 kpa when you think your only at 1/4 throttle, even more-so at lower rpm.

When 90R refers to alpha-n above hes refering to tuning with just tps and map as i explained earlier just to clarify to you. This is the setting you need to set MS (or any other ECU) to to run no map sensor input.

Dann
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Old 04-06-2011, 01:37 AM   #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Savington View Post
What the **** are you saying?
I dont even know anymore.

I think what I was trying to get across is that one stroke is irrelevant to the grand picture. In one second an engine can take in more air than I can breath in a minute. Its like breathing through a straw. If you open up the airway it gets easier to pull in air.

Quote:
Originally Posted by curly View Post
We're going to add to our warning system. Not only will we have a grammar warning, but now WonTon will have a math warning.
okay, okay....no more math for me.

Atleast I think my math was right on the second try!
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Old 04-06-2011, 01:42 AM   #100
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Originally Posted by Pusha View Post
If you want to be so different, just live under a ******* bridge.
I was warned for this post by curly, I believe this to be unjust. I stand by my original post and would like to add that the OP's reasons for starting this topic are retarded. You can't thread crap in a beshitted thread.

In case you missed his reasoning behind wanting ITBs:

" mean think about it. If you have a LS-1 camaro and you get beat by a turbo Miata...you'll be like, "that thing weighs 1/2 my car, and I don't have boost...let me boost my car, then we'll see who wins". However, if you beat me, but I still can hang with you, you might say, "that thing is pretty fast, but I didn't hear it blow off. What? It's Not Boosted??? That's pretty mean!"
ITB's change the whole power band. I have read that it's full throttle power from 3000-9000 RPM."
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