Mazdaspeed Miata or Aftermarket Turbo Miata? - Page 2 - Miata Turbo Forum - Boost cars, acquire cats.

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Old 08-05-2009, 02:59 AM   #21
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If you want a car you will never have to wrench on, buy an MSM. If you want a fast Miata and you don't want to wrench on it, find a GOOD shop and be prepared to pay them well.
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Old 08-05-2009, 03:05 AM   #22
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You know its funny how you can try to start cheap and end up spending a whole lot of money. Okay that is kewl... so check this out, say I bought a 2001 classic red base model with the typical ****, power windows, open diff with 50,000, but it was in superb mechanical condition and the paint was like knew. I paid market retail price of around 8,000 dollars.

Okay i'll show you how easy it is to spend more money when you could just have the best of the best, the Mazdaspeed Miata....lets get to modding...

In this example, we'll say the owner is me. I am mechanically inclined and have everything except the help and equipment that is definitely needed to pull the motor or drop the tranny. (But I have dropped and replaced about 6 rear ends, those are a little tricky, but very manageable with one guy)

Factory suspension, that is ****... I'm tossing that out and getting some real suspension from my guys at Flyin Miata. Shipping included in estimates.

FM Stage 2 suspension with Tokico shocks, springs, and sway bars. 850 dollars shipped.
Fat Cat Motorsports MCU 46mm/36mm bumpstops and boots, 69 dollars.
FM Level 1 clutch, 375 dollars shipped, 200 dollars labor. 575 dollars installed and ready.
FM 2.5 inch midpipe and single exhaust, 725 dollars shipped.

Now I gotta put good sound system in

Clearwater audio 8 inch system, 200 dollars.
Pioneer 300 watt amp. 100 dollars.
Panasonic Ipod receiver, 175 dollars.

Things are adding up. Now I gotta get a roll bar...

Harddog Sport M2 roll bar with double diagonals, 425 dollars shipped.

We will stratch the tires... since that is more or less too many variables to consider...

Now for the turbo kit. Flyin Miata Voodoo II turbo system with GT2560. 3450 dollars!

With all that power, you finally need a torsen. So shell out 800 dollars for a 3:90 torsen in the carrier and speedo gear.

Lets add this **** up... We gotta a 200 rear wheel horsepower car with the works... 15,369 dollars and a whole lot sweat involved... 13000 dollars if you considered you bought every little aftermarket piece used including the turbo kit. (That is considering the typical slightly used resale value of most FM parts. 80 percent resale value)

Okay kewl. I got my 2001 with 50,000 miles all hot-rodded and that good **** everything but the good weed and 'dat purple drank

Now here is what I could have had if I went with the MSM Miata. A velocity red with 50,000 miles for 13,000. and the bosch already included, the bigger cv joints and shafts, that's included, the turbo intake and exhaust cam, the fancy *** interior, the bose audio system. the decent turbo system, the bilstein shocks with mazdaspeed springs and sways, the racing hart wheels, the powder coated big sport brakes, the 6 speed transmission and the list goes on and on. And if you don't like the factory suspension, sell it for around 500-600 dollars. Don't like the factory bose, sell that **** for..yeah 200 dollars for the headunit, amp, speakers. Don't like the front lip, sell it...for 300 dollars.

So i'll stop there but you quickly get the drift that for the same 13,000 I spent on the 01, I could have a damn good car that is equally as fast. With alot less hassle and oh yeah...I don't even have to mess with the clutch
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Old 08-05-2009, 03:11 AM   #23
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With that, I am going to take a good long ****
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Old 08-05-2009, 08:58 AM   #24
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he's got a point
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Old 08-05-2009, 10:23 AM   #25
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If I had a choice I would have gone with the MSM. That "little things" list is actually pretty desirable to me since the whole car is better prepped for making power. I'm actually looking for some MSM parts - transmission, axels etc for that reason.
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Old 08-05-2009, 01:33 PM   #26
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Shoot yeah man me too, if you keep a watchful eye there is always somebody selling a low mileage unit in the range of 13,000 dollars. Truth is, you don't have to go all crazy with the MSM. You can have a nice 160 rear wheel horsepower MSM with perfect drivability by simply replacing the stock intercooler with a 60 dollar 28x7.5x2.5 bar and plate ebay intercooler. (Just make your own aluminum bracketry and cute about 4 inches of the left and right charge pipes and bolt it right in) and then add an 02 signal modifier. This practically eliminates the fuss caused by the ecu going in and out of open-loop and makes for a much smoother drive. (don't believe me, drive a Jackson Racing Miata with the old powercard...IT SUCKS) And lastly on that number, if your stock recirculating bypass valve isn't leaking more than a .5 psi... I wouldn't even worry about it...

With just 120 dollars worth of upgrades, you've already attained the typical performance that is featured in a Begi S Series or Voodoo 1 kit. (Both outstanding kits I must say) Want more power, start with a very affordable AEM intake and manual boost controller. That opens 15-20 horses right there! Whoa! Want a good recirculating valve, forge motorsports has the answer. People fuss about the factory exhaust but lets be honest, how many people here on the forums is going to keep a factory exhaust anyway... I sure as hell am not going to run a 1 7/8 NB exhaust on my turbo car. Do all that, replace the exhaust and say hello to a reliable 200 rear wheel horsepower. Incredible for simple bolt ons.

Want more power, heck sell the stock turbo assembly, everything and purchase a BEGI MSM Series Turbo system with the GT2860RS. Your factory turbo equipment can bring anywhere from 500 dollars to 900 dollars. The whole kit that is, or part it out... That will help you recuperate some of your expense.
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Old 08-05-2009, 01:40 PM   #27
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Go with an aftermarket turbo setup on a regular Miata, MSMs are slow.
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Old 08-05-2009, 03:02 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cody Strife View Post
(don't believe me, drive a Jackson Racing Miata with the old powercard...IT SUCKS)
Oh yeah, check out that sweet *** fuel curve! P-P-P-Powercard!! FTL:



Quote:
Originally Posted by JayL View Post
Go with an aftermarket turbo setup on a regular Miata, MSMs are slow.
What a fantastic argument! You've got me sold right there!! If a low 14 second car bone stock is slow, sure. They're quicker than any bone stock GT mustang I ever ran across, along with 3/4 of the cars on the road... Including the illustrious race car known as the "Type-R"
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Old 08-05-2009, 03:25 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 18psi View Post
Hmm lets see:
mazdaspeed: basically same motor, tiny *** turbo, joke of an intercooler, piece of crap stock ecu, only cool stuff is the transmission/diff and the bilsteins. Lost of misc **** different but no one really cares about it. MUCH bigger price tag.

aftermarket: bigger turbo, good sized fmic, most running a good engine management, and many well sorted. smaller price tag.

There are exceptions to this but thats it for the most part.
What he said.....

I would own a MSM ONLY if you ripped out the turbo kit and replaced it. And added an Xede (or alternate Engine Management). That is totally necessary to fix the MSM Bog/TPS problem that the stock ECU has.

The stock turbo on the MSM is a total and complete piece of crap. I have seen a turbo (with 20K miles on it) that had a crack in the turbine housing. A turbo with 30K miles that had shaft play. A turbo at 40K miles that seized. So yeah, in my opinion, it has to go.
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Old 08-05-2009, 08:17 PM   #30
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weak i didn't receive any email notifications from this thread..
ok so after reading page 1 I was leaning towards buying an N/A miata and adding turbo etc..
after page 2 I think I'll look for the MSM and upgrade turbo/fuel/etc later on

I usually get crazy with all the little thing mods myself and like the fact that it came from the factory that way

Thanks guys
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Old 08-05-2009, 08:18 PM   #31
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Why in the world wouldn't they have a sticky at Mazdaspeed for a power upgrade path. Intercooler, exhaust, intake, downpipe, turbo, ecu, etc. Here's what gets you 200hp safely, here's 250. It has to be beaten to death there with clear and obvious paths to do it. They must love answering the same questions constantly like members here do!
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Old 08-06-2009, 12:11 AM   #32
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Woops uh I didn't notice the comparison to an aftermarket turbo miata.

I would look for a aftermarket turbo miata. Definetly. But one with the following only--

1) a real ECU e.g., Hydra or MS.
2) Decently installed BEGI or FM turbo kit. Not a hacked together greddy.
3) upgraded suspension
4) roll bar
5) wheelz and rimz
6) upgraded clutch
7) 99+ because the old body style is lame.
8) decent paint and body

This sounds like a pretty specific and demanding list but it's actually very common to see cars with the above mod list going for under 10K. If you wait long enough, you can find one with an engine that's already been built. I bought my car for 16K with 15K miles when it was 2 years old. For that much I could have bought a well sorted aftermarket turbo car with the above list in perfect condition that would **** all over a mazdaspeed.

For 1500-2000 (maybe less) I think you could get the mazdaspeed tranny, axles, maybe even cams.
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Old 08-06-2009, 03:35 PM   #33
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If you must, just buy an MSM and replace the turbo assembly with a Begi or FM MSM Kit. I've heard a few examples of bad turbos on the MSM, but plenty of examples with 60,000 miles or over. I bought me a brand new IHI turbo. It was 269 dollars and included oil lines, oil drain, t-fitting for us guys who get our oil from the oil pressure sender (that is a tough part to find) and other stuff... No prob with it so far.

My guess is that you shouldn't have a problem selling the stock turbo assembly for 600 dollars...
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Old 08-06-2009, 04:00 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cody Strife View Post
If you must, just buy an MSM and replace the turbo assembly with a Begi or FM MSM Kit. I've heard a few examples of bad turbos on the MSM, but plenty of examples with 60,000 miles or over. I bought me a brand new IHI turbo. It was 269 dollars and included oil lines, oil drain, t-fitting for us guys who get our oil from the oil pressure sender (that is a tough part to find) and other stuff... No prob with it so far.

My guess is that you shouldn't have a problem selling the stock turbo assembly for 600 dollars...
Ahh, I'd say go after a 2002 SE since you get the cool headlight / tail light covers, stainless door scuff plates, aluminum pedals, 6-speed, 3:90 rear with LSD, killer chassis stiffening, great seats, and a whole bunch of the things you would have seen on the MSM for less money... then add the BEGi turbo kit, adaptronic, and oh wait.... that's my car!

Seriously, you will likely change the shocks and springs after the car has 50k miles on it... you'll want more boost than the stock MSM has... and you'll eat a cluch and have to replace it... So if you want the body upgrades, roll MSM. Other than that go aftermarket on an NB non MSM and have more fun.

My 99 automatic destroyed a local MSM on a 1 mile trip. Back then I only had the more or less BEGi S1 and ran e85... in an auto. So bang for buck, MSM is not it if you can turn wrenches. but they look sexxxxxyyyy
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Old 08-06-2009, 04:12 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cody Strife View Post
If you must, just buy an MSM and replace the turbo assembly with a Begi or FM MSM Kit. I've heard a few examples of bad turbos on the MSM, but plenty of examples with 60,000 miles or over. I bought me a brand new IHI turbo. It was 269 dollars and included oil lines, oil drain, t-fitting for us guys who get our oil from the oil pressure sender (that is a tough part to find) and other stuff... No prob with it so far.

My guess is that you shouldn't have a problem selling the stock turbo assembly for 600 dollars...
There is absolutely no way you would get $600 for a used MSM system. I could sell it for more than $300 for the turbo, manifold, and downpipe. They truly are not worth much.

Plenty of people may still be doing 60K miles on their stock turbo, but they have yet to remove it, and they won't be for much longer. 10:1 when they take it off, there is problems. The stock turbo is truly a piece of crap. Not worth $5 as a paper weight. There are people driving MSMs that have had bad turbos, straight from the dealership. I'd put a cheap Chinese turbo on my car before I'd use an MSM turbo. (Even though the IHI turbo is a Japanese turbo.)
Stephanie
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Old 08-06-2009, 04:15 PM   #36
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Seriously Cody, I think you are just a bit too carried away with MSM's. Nothing wrong with that, but you just refuse to see the many down sides to them. Great cars, but better can be had for cheaper.
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Old 08-06-2009, 04:33 PM   #37
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Its cute how many of you actually secretly like the MSM as a normal, factory-turbo car :3 it ain't so bad after all, eh?
Sure its no STI/Evolution/Corvette/etcetc but its relatively inexpensive for the goodies you get.

However, I still stick with the assertion that SOMEONE THAT KNOWS WHAT THEY ARE DOING can build a better turbo miata than the MSM, given the proper funding (you guys know who you are).

Also: I lol`d at stephanie
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Old 08-06-2009, 05:22 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephanie Turner View Post
Plenty of people may still be doing 60K miles on their stock turbo, but they have yet to remove it, and they won't be for much longer.
My car, as of this morning, has 99,200 miles. I don't recall the mileage when I took out the stock turbo and installed BEGI's ported stocker last year ..... Stephanie do you have any memory of that? LOL, nor did you ever tell me the mileage of the one I bought from you, but it was in better shape than the stocker I removed.
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Old 08-06-2009, 06:17 PM   #39
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EXCELLENT IDEA!

I forgot all about the 02 special editions. They too make a great platform to boost. Nice strong aisin 6-speed manual. Sport suspension, big brakes, and that much nicer geared 3:90 Torsen. Plus its got lots of good gatchets and upgrades. And bilsteins.

Actually any of the special editions make good platforms. The 99 10th Anniversary is great, the 2000 special edition is equally good, the 01 Se, 02 Special Edition's. After that, they discontinued the 3:90 rear end in the 6-speeds. In fact, if you go asking for the 3:90 ring and pinion, you're **** out of luck...

Quote:
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Ahh, I'd say go after a 2002 SE since you get the cool headlight / tail light covers, stainless door scuff plates, aluminum pedals, 6-speed, 3:90 rear with LSD, killer chassis stiffening, great seats, and a whole bunch of the things you would have seen on the MSM for less money... then add the BEGi turbo kit, adaptronic, and oh wait.... that's my car!

Seriously, you will likely change the shocks and springs after the car has 50k miles on it... you'll want more boost than the stock MSM has... and you'll eat a cluch and have to replace it... So if you want the body upgrades, roll MSM. Other than that go aftermarket on an NB non MSM and have more fun.

My 99 automatic destroyed a local MSM on a 1 mile trip. Back then I only had the more or less BEGi S1 and ran e85... in an auto. So bang for buck, MSM is not it if you can turn wrenches. but they look sexxxxxyyyy
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Old 08-06-2009, 06:20 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by Stephanie Turner View Post
There is absolutely no way you would get $600 for a used MSM system. I could sell it for more than $300 for the turbo, manifold, and downpipe. They truly are not worth much.

Plenty of people may still be doing 60K miles on their stock turbo, but they have yet to remove it, and they won't be for much longer. 10:1 when they take it off, there is problems. The stock turbo is truly a piece of crap. Not worth $5 as a paper weight. There are people driving MSMs that have had bad turbos, straight from the dealership. I'd put a cheap Chinese turbo on my car before I'd use an MSM turbo. (Even though the IHI turbo is a Japanese turbo.)
Stephanie
Yeah you could get 500-600 dollars that includes absolutely everything, chargepipes and 28x7.5x2.5 intercooler. But 300 is realistic for the manifold, turbo, and outlet...

People can call the factory turbo **** all day, but they don't know nothing until they experience the true shittiness of the Jackson Racing M45 with moss motors (get ready ooooo!!!) revolutionary pah-pah-pah POWERCARD! Engine Choke Card with awesome 9:1 air-fuel ratio.

that damn Jackson Racing is a paperweight if there ever was one... I can't say much, I hope my little IHI holds up for a good 60,000 miles. As it is right now, its a great little turbo for us pleased with 170 RWHP. If you're abitious on the power, then definitely invest in a nice Garrett T2560 or T2860RS (Disco Potatoe) I won't lie, I have owned a 260 rear wheel horsepower Miata and they are a blast, but having 170-200 rear wheel horsepower is great to, plus you have piece of mind of knowing that, at 8.5 psi and good maintanence, that engine will go own for at least 175,000 miles of use... Not saying your engine is going to tear up by running 12 psi, a good tune makes all the difference in the world

Last edited by Cody Strife; 08-06-2009 at 06:35 PM.
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