Is a Mazdaspeed Miata not the best choice for me?
 

Hey all,

So if you go through my history you will see I used to have a 93' that I turbocharged back when I lived in PA. I now live in CA with a stock engined 94', so I think I have a decent handle on what I am doing :giggle:.

I want a faster car that I can continue to do track days with, so my options are a really nice turbo kit or a Mazdaspeed.

The big issue is CARB and reliability. I know from previous experience, to be reliable with HPDE's, I would have to drop about 5-6 grand on a turbo kit (including a 6 speed, clutch, ECU, fuel injectors, and engine refresh (the engine is leaking oil and has a stripped spark plug)). So that would put me about $10000 into my 94' (excluding the BBK and suspension I currently have) with the big kicker, there is no way I could pass CARB which would be a huge PITA.

The Mazdaspeed, on the other hand, would cost me around $12000, I would get a much newer and better looking car, and would give me about 50 more horsepower from now. I could swap over my BBK, sell the suspension, swap over my 6ULs, and spend about a grand for an intercooler and exhaust. That would put me near 200whp for about $12-13k all said and done.

So for $2-3k more, I have CARB approval, shot-peened 6 speed, diff with the larger half shafts, and a nicer car with better looking body that can reliably do HPDEs.

Everyone seems to hate on the Mazdaspeed, yet I cannot see where I am at fault. Maybe if I was in a non-CARB state it would be different, but am I missing something?

Does my logic sound reasonable?

Thanks! :rofl:

In stock form, terrible power band and 6400 rpm rev limiter. It's the worst driving Miata Mazda made, but with the best specs. If you drive one, you'll see. If I had to chose between a stock MSM or a modded regular NB2, I'd take the NB2. But add mods to the MSM, and it's no contest. Replace the intake, intercooler, exhaust, injectors, and ECU, and they become pretty fun. Not as awe inspiring as a legit aftermarket turbo system, but very capable and fun to drive.

I have built megasquirts before so I would pretty quickly do a Megasquirt and intercooler setup. Probably a 3.9 or 3.636 diff ratio too as I know how horrible a 6 speed with 4.1 is from my last turbo car.

I just don't see how else I could get a 200whp miata for around that price and CARB OK.

That's the real challenge.

Bell technically has an EO up through '99, but they no longer sell a lot of the parts spec'd by the EO, and of course you can't install the system on a CA-spec NB in the first place, as it doesn't accommodate the forward catalyst that the '99-'00 cars used.

The Miata aftermarket seems to have more-or-less given up on California, which is sad. So far as I'm aware, the only forced-induction systems in current production which are actually, fully CA legal are the MP62s. Several other companies have made promises, none have yet delivered.

I've beaten this dead horse in my head at least 5 billion times.

And I'm still driving an NB2, in CA no less.

You know why? cause stock the MSM blows chunks. Once you mod it, there goes your CARB legality. For all the bolt on crap you'd have to remove and re-install to pass smog on a MSM yearly and still make a proper 200whp, you'll be a couple hours away from doing the same with an aftermarket turbo kit on a NB2. And that kit would absolutely pee in the MSM setup's cheerios.

I can't even explain to you how many times I've considered what you're talking about lol


*EDIT: and yes, like Joe said, FFS is pretty much your only option if you want an actual legitimate CA forced induction setup outside of a stock MSM

In my experience, most smog shops don't know one turbo from another, or one intercooler from another (or if it is supposed to have one or not, etc.) so I would think the MSM, if done right without a bunch of anodized and blingy visible parts, would be a lot easier to fly under the smog radar in a modified form since it was supposed to have a turbo. The other car you basically have no choice but to pull the whole turbo system off to have a chance at smog.

That's just smog though, the bigger question is what do you tell the cop who pulled you over and asks you to pop the hood? Because if they send you to the ref, THAT guy checks every vacuum line. The Mazdaspeed wins here. Again, painting things black and using understated looking stuff could pass most cop's scrutiny.

Drive either one like a grandma on the street like I do though, and you might not have the cop issue. I do at least have the almighty CARB sticker in my engine bay, despite it having nothing to do with what's on the car anymore...

Personally, if I was seriously looking at boost in an OBDII miata in this state, I think I'd go MSM.
-Ryan

Exactly X100. I could swap the turbo, get a new downpipe, etc etc on the mazdaspeed and the chances of it ever being noticed is very low. If I get pulled over, even less of a problem.

I COULD get a turboed NA/NB passed because if you pay enough anything can happen. But that is $300-$400 every two years to pay for that "service". And as said, if I ever get pulled over I am so screwed.

I love CA, if it wasn't for this policy and a couple small things it would be perfect.

Either way it seems MSM is the way to go. I don't want a 300+ hp car yet, i'll save that later for a 911 or Stingray corvette whenever I can afford one ;).

Suit yourself. I know plenty of people that got busted by cops and turned away at smog with modded MSM's but maybe my county is way crazier than other CA counties.

What kind of mods?

intake, shiny fmic core, hard piping, downpipe. it doesn't help that they were all shiny and aftermarket looking, but I mean not every single cop and smog shop is a moron.

I'm not talking you out of it btw, its not a bad idea at all, I just think an NB2 with a proper turbo setup is better. Mods for the msm are quite pricey if you stick to brand names.

Just something to consider.

Basically this is about living with the inferior car for 729 days for 1 day of potential convenience, amirite?

Inferior car is a stretch, they are great cars IMO, I just think that too much stuff needs to be upgraded to make it track ready and putting down 200whp. fmic, hardpiping, bpv/bov, inco studs, dp, exhaust, mbc, and ms3 and you're already talking about 3-4k in mods.

and then when you want to make more power, you either get one of those BNR upgrades or have to basically scrap the setup cause not much else will fit the manifold.

I dunno. I was kinda tempted to do this actually, but just didn't make sense.

If you found a killer deal on an MSM.......would probably be cool

I get it. We had one, Vteckiller2000 has it now and loves it.


Teh Funnies: I bought it in CA because smog had become a serious issue with it with pretty much the exact list you had there. Because of this, i got a screaming deal on it for the time.

So then next question, what would be considered a killer deal? It seems the average going price for a good example is around $13,000. Is 10-11k a pretty solid deal?

The way I look at it is a good NB with sport package and 6 speed goes for around $7-8k. With 200whp turbo kit adding another $5000 for total cost of $12-13k. So a MSM for $11-12k seems like a good deal. That sound right?

I see clean ones for 10.
Ed picked up his clean/built/ABSRURD setup and modded to the teeth MSM for 12.

I guess location would dictate price more than anything though.

Clean NB2 could be found for 6. Not so clean ones can be found for 5. Uber clean cherry low mile ones are 7-8k

Swapping bolt on parts is easy but how do you plan on dealing with the piss poor ECU on the MSM?

My intuitive reaction is that he has three fundamental options, none of which requires removing bolt-on parts.

1. Most of the bolt-on goodies which FM sells for the MSM can be handled by the stock ECU. Sandblast the shiny bits and have them powder coated an OEM-like finish.

2. He could do #1, plus add a competent ECU, leaving the stock injectors in place. Thus, swapping the stock ECU once every two years is a pretty trivial task.

3. Realize that it only takes about an hour to swap injectors, and that you only have to do it twice a year.

Do certain counties in Cali not have emissions? Register it there.

Here in Chicago I have emissions once a year but it's just an OBD2 check and cops couldn't give a shit about mods.

But in a neighboring county they have no emissions so I used a friends address at his apartment and went to a currency exchange and had it registered there. He just forewords the mail if I get anything. If you go to a DMV they ask for 2 proofs of residency, but currency exchange gives no shits.

If a cop pulls me over and asks why my car is registered in another county but my license says I'm in this county, I just say I haven't updated my license or I own 2 houses. Or the car was registered under my parents address. If legall they need me to prove it, I just ask my buddy for some proof. My car hasn't had emissions in 2 years.

#3 is what I am looking at. Swapping ECUs takes about 5 min and the injectors I can do in less than an hr if I tried hard :).

Yeah basically just paint all aftermarket stuff black so it all just blends in.

Mazduh - As far as I know that would be nearly impossible to do.

once every 2 years

I was thinking about this more. If I wanted an OBDII roadster with 200whp that wouldn't have problems with CA smog or cops, AND could handle track abuse for $12k, I'd get an S2K, screw the MSM. Like 18psi said, it really is another $3k minimum to get the MSM track-capable.

-Ryan

This. Yes.

As for pricing,

I passed on a super clean, 45k mile garaged MSM in Ti Gray for $9300 when I was shopping for a shell to swap my parts to. I found at least 3 low-ish mile red MSM's for around $9k during that time period as well.

If I didn't have this car which is fast and that I love, I would have an S2k.

That being said, an MSM with an aftermarket ECU and injectors can easily run 200whp, and if you go PNP you can swap back in very little time as you stated. I think that's a solid plan if you like the MSM to begin with. Take into account the value of your preference. Do you like the MSM better than a regular NB2? That's worth something.

They wised up to that trick years ago.





Twice every two years is what I meant to say. (Once to put the stockers in, once to take 'em out.



I wouldn't. At least not if the car was going to see extensive street use.

I've driven a first-gen S2K, and while it's a fine car, I find the interior ergonomics to be quite poor. The NB is hardly the most comfortable car in the world, but compared to the S2K it's your grandfather's well-worn recliner.

Thankfully, you're wrong on that one.

From https://www.dmv.ca.gov/vr/smogfaq.htm :

Program Area Lookup

You'll also note that there is at least one county (Inyo) that is not on either list, which means that all zip codes in that county do not require bi-annual smogs.

Do with this information what you will. :party:

The AEM intake is CARB legal

22-489P - AEM , AEM Short Ram Intake System direct from AEM

CA is brutal, and I agree that the S2000 route would be tough to beat given the situation.

Or just come to IL where you can pass emissions with any car not showing a CEL :)

Well finding a 2004+ S2K for 12 grand is nearly impossible, PLUS it adds about $400 a year in insurance over the MSM :(.

I found a MSM on craigslist with tons of mods for $13k... Ill try to go take a good look over it.

Uh, go buy this now:

Rare Lava Orange Mica 2005 Mazda MX-5 Miata Mazdaspeed

If it wasn't a salvage title I would in a heartbeat :(

wtf how did I miss that...

Is it this one you're looking at then?

2004 Mazdaspeed Miata with options

If so, seems pretty solid. Stock turbo but lots of really really good parts. Doesn't have the turbo kit I had, but it's got $$$ suspension, a trick rear diff, meth injection... way solid, sir.

Yessir, talked to him yesterday and seemed knowledgeable enough. Some of the stuff worries me just because it's involved (welded roll bar being one) so I will have to go over it really good.

Best of luck. Hope it works out.

If you're planning on actually passing smog with it though make sure he has all the stock stuff to go back on.. You'll need stock injectors, ECU, and probably stock exhaust to make it all work.

I'll chime in here for a moment- because of the years spent with both my turbo'd 02 and a friend's MSM with all the typical bolt-ons.


The MSM isn't all that bad....kinda. More than performance/rwhp upgrades, I'd first look for a 3.9 rear-end or 3.6 gear-set. Next, I would swap in a 99-03 steering rack (yes, it is different...the MSM rack has multiple feet more turning radius). Those two things would make the MSM lightyears better. Next, ditch the shitty suspension (if someone else hasn't already done so). After that, start making power.

I do like the unique colors and small details of the MSM and it doesn't take much to make them the fun/quick car that Mazda should have sold them as.

Dont matter, the OBD2 still has to show green everywhere sooo.

Went today, seems decent. The Ohlins suspension rides nice I must say. The car is kinda dirty, some serious frame rail damage (pancaked) that looks like from a speed bump. The ACT Extreme clutch is pretty darn heavy and grabby. The tune on the megasquirt seems alright, stalls when AC is on sometimes.

It sucks that the soft top is not in there. I would need to get a new frame and top, but supposedly it will fit with the rollbar :/.

I dunno if I fully trust the work, I will have to think about it. Plus the interior was missing alot of trim, trunk was gutted out and the meth injection takes up half the trunk haha. Was pretty quick though.



I also found a bone stock one with less than 70k miles that I looked at. Drove very nice, I might be able to get him to $10k... hmmm. It was in very nice shape, just had water pump/timing belt done. Could feel the speed difference for sure from the other one though.

Why do you need a 2004+?

An s2k isn't really any more money than an MSM after you do what you need to do to the MSM. And will still probably be faster around a track. And more stock for more reliability.

Because the 04+ is the ap2 with much nicer parts and moar displacement.

I know what the 04+ is... but i'm asking OP. I prefer the F20 cars, gearing works a little better and they feel better. :makeout:

I guess you hate torque and really really good looking cars? lulz

The carbon synchros actually make the ap2 even slicker shifting, and the extra engine girth gives the powerband at least a shred more torque. Maybe the ap1 is better for track? I wouldn't know.

correct me if i'm wrong... but don't 94-97 cars have retarded obd2 that can't really be hooked up to and read from by smog shops? I thought these cars were sniffer only and no obd2 hook up?

Everything 96+ is OBDII and does in fact hook up and "read"

At least here in CA it does. Not sure about the Fed spec cars, but I highly doubt they're any different.

*EDIT: also keep in mind that given our "wonderful" CA laws, everything past 75 gets a full visual inspection as well as the sniffer.

OP has a 94. so IMO get an FM turbo kit and go nuts. I never usually have a problem finding the right guy here in socal to smog the car. I'm not going to go into the details but typically you can end up in a situation where if it sniffs it passes.

Pre 95 cars are OBD1.

96 + are OBD2 which will report everything going on in the engine read by the sensors.

Here in IL obd1 cars are not tested however obd2 cars require a fully working obd2 ecu.

YOU GUYS ARE DICKS... I'M NEVER POSTING HERE AGAIN!!!

lol jk. thanks for correcting me on that one. I knew there was something weird to that generations ecu. :noob:

WTB: OBD1 NB

For the body? Or the other things? I bet you could get damn close with an NA if you were a bit creative.

For instance, our car runs a BP4W head. With a CAS. Smog man wouldn't know a damn thing.

You are correct. OBD-II compatibility is mandatory in all 1996 and later vehicle by US Federal law, and as a result of this uniformity, the vast majority of states which perform emissions testing do a plug-in test on all '96 and later vehicles. Many (most?) of these states have switched to plugin-only testing (in lieu of the sniffer) for '96 and newer cars, and in a few states, they've gotten rid of the sniffers entirely and thus all 1995 and older vehicles are exempt from emissions testing. (North Carolina comes to mind, and I *think* Ohio may have also switched.)




Which leads into...
This is certainly a viable option. When I had my Greddy-equipped '92, I took it to one particular shop (a one-bay place in a seedy neighborhood run by a grizzly older man who used the other bay to store all of his non-running motorcycles), since this gentleman took a somewhat relaxed attitude towards the visual inspection. That said, I was always slightly nervous about the possibility that an over-eager CHiPpie might someday request that I lift the hood, in which case it would have been a referee ticket followed by forfeiture.


As Savington pointed out, you can always try to register the car in a non-emissions county. This is one of those concepts that you hear people discuss in the abstract, but nobody can ever actually seem to point to a specific example of where it worked. In the 8 years I lived in CA, I only ever met one person who actually had an "exempt" car, and that was because of a rather bizarre (and unintentional, and likely nonrepeatable) series of paperwork errors at the DMV which took place during the process of importing a salvage-titled car, which had not been re-registered in its home state subsequent to the writeoff, into CA from elsewhere.

Well as said I would rather an AP2 for the engine. But another reason is my credit union will let me finance an 04+ for 1.99% APR. I plan to just pay the car off in a year or two and take advantage of the great rate.



EErock, what about getting pulled over? Plus the one I have now has a stripped spark plug that I did not find when buying and the oil pan is leaking... I couldn't just throw a turbo on it without worrying about the engine. The previous owner sucked :/

Ah!

Good point. Carry on!

I run my car NA and I keep everything very stock looking under the hood with this car. But the outside of my car screams pull me the eff over... never been pulled over once. Granted nearly all of my driving with this car is done while going to the track and home again. I don't speed in this car on the street and I short shift unless i'm ready to get a ticket.

Thepass has an insane car that he street drives to the track and hasn't gotten pulled over in a long while, if ever.

It's all about how you drive the thing. I used to have a completely modified mini that would have resulted in a part out of pulled over and hood popped. Drove that car on socal roads for 4 years without a single issue, pull over, or hood pop and most of that cars life was up in the canyons of malibu in CHP hunting grounds.

Just don't drive like an ass and don't roll around with street racers and you should be fine. Prepare yourself for the possibility of going back to stock if you get busted, or move out of state LoL. That's the game we play here.

I'm curious:

Who here has ever had their hood popped by a cop on the street when:
1) you weren't street racing/speeding
2) your car wasn't a crazy looking racecar
3) car wasn't loud enough to wake the dead

I know plenty of people that had it happen, but all couldn't meet the above categories.

4) you get pulled over for a random cause, the cop notices the car smells like shit because of no cat and things go from there. Happened to a buddy here, the cop checked his truck with a mirror and he had no cat.

That's just giving them ammo for free. A single cell racing cat barely robs any HP and gets you playing by their rules.

Yeah as of last year all my cars get catted hotside parts.

Because why not. Usually cuts down on raspiness as a bonus

Even though I think we've killed the topic, I just wanted to add my input.

I drove a grey '04 msm yesterday, bone stock, 157,000 miles. It was fantastic. Everything I love in an NB for DDability, plus torque and even some high end power. I don't find myself rev'ing to 7000 on a consistent basis, and if the wife's in the car and I'm that high, it's partial throttle because she gets car sick. So the 6500rpm redline wasn't even noticeable.

For $9k I would of bought it in an instant just from how much I liked it, although he said "no bullshit, you could probably walk out the door with it for $7.5k".

Value just isn't there for my current DD, an '08 Lancer. Need to sell that first for $6k and walk in with $4-5k cash.

Although I did not see a reason to go with the $9k MSM over the $6k '01 6spd/torsen.

Could you not do a MSM and then the new MS3PNP that DIY is selling? Just plug in stock ECU every 2 year for testing?

I wish my msm was stock still so I could install just a megasquirt and see the difference in drivability. When I went on to a megasquirt my car was already running full bolt=ons etc.

I would get a Reverent MS3, but yes that's the idea.

its a sexellent idea :party:

Last time I drove a stock-ecu msm I wanted to get out and push the car pre-5k rpm

There must be huge differences between different MSMs, I could not be happier with how the '04 drove with 157k. I've heard similar opinions. Everywhere from bone stock to bolt ons, they all drive very differently.