Mazdaspeed Miatas are a bargain!
 

I have been looking at prices for DIY turbocharging 1999-2000 Miatas. My total cost of parts needed to get a Miata at 200whp comes up to around $4000 or so. I started a thread on that DIY cost a few months ago. Add the $4000 DIY cost to the cost of a 1999 or 2000 car (about $5000) and you are at $9000.

I can get a 2004 Mazdaspeed Miata with 50-60k miles for $10,000 - $11,000. The best part is that I can finance the "turbo kit" part of the MSM. I realize that I will need to spend $1000 or so to get the MSM to 200whp though. However, some guys are selling their MSM's with the Flyin' Miata "Little Enchilada" package for $11,000. That package is supposed to put the MSM at 200whp, which happens to be within the capacity of the stock MSM clutch.

I don't know why the prices on turbo'd 1999-2000 cars are so high, when a guy can spend a little bit more for a newer car, that is factory turbo'd, and has a stronger gearbox. It seems that the MSM is a bargain, for me. I want the NB body style and 200whp (for starters).

The first thing a MSM needs is a ECU. I would go with the hydra and thats 2k. But you could get something for around 1000 bucks. Its not much cheaper to upgrade the MSM then to get a FM2 for a NA miata.

I wouldnt mind a MSM....with a completely reworked turbo kit and ECU.

+1

I think the MSM is a great starting platform, IMHO. Even cheezy as they are I personally like the little styling differences on them. Colors, the lip, headlights, rear bumper, interior, etc.

Even the bone stock one we had a couple years ago was really peppy, the transmission felt fantastic and had enough power to have a good deal of fun.

Its great to start with if you only have mild goals. Add a bigger intercooler, and charge pipes, intake, etc. Turn the boost up a little.

But if you plan on making serious power its not really worth it since youll end up replacing the entire setup

I own one of these faggy cars so, I might as well add my 2 cents here. IMO the real reward with purchasing an MSM is not the turbo. The turbo itself is somewhat limited, the manifold sucks dongs, and the ecu is a joke.

The real goodies are the beefier rear axles, the transmission, the differential, the bilstein dampers, upgraded sway bars, the steering rack, and the headlamps. Now you might say 'hey wait, you can get all that queer shit on a special edition or LS NB2 car anyways,' but I assure you the MSM has 'special' gears, different dampers, a different steering rack, and visibly larger rear axles. The differential is up for interpretation as most do not like the 4.1 final drive, but that can be changed.

Should have bought my 99. Blue, leather, torsen, It was completely done with ECU and turbo, plus you got Tein Flex, 6 ULs, new RS3's, sways, radiator, etc. etc for $10K. There are deals out there, you just have to look.

I see 99s for sale at 5K fairly often and the prices around here are higher than the norm as near as I can tell.

For 200WHP, you need a turbo and the exhaust side stuff (about 2500 if you get good stuff new, much much cheaper if you do any fab yourself or source things used), an ECU (get MS and hook it up as detailed in the sticky - 400) and then an IC, injectors, and lets throw in a clutch.

I guess that theoretically comes to 9 grand total, but then again thats about what you need for 230+ WHP, let alone 200WHP. And if you use RX7 injectors, a cheapo log mani, home made DP, internal gate, etc, its a good bit cheaper.

I would love an MSM, but frankly I would rather get a 99, slowly mod it, avoid any debt whatsoever, and end up with 30 to 40 more WHP. I would definitely get the MSM if I was in the money, but I am not. This also has the advatage of allowing me to do the driver mod in highly economical autoX classes where if I am not doing well I know it is me, not the car.

My biggest beef with the MSM...even over the ECU....is that God damn 4.1 rear-end. Whay Mazda? Why could you not leavef the 3.9 alone?!?!?!

4K to get to 200rwhp?

FWIW, I've spent about 1,700ish on my turbo, and I'm shooting for 200rwhp... This is with a standalone, FM mani, Begi DP and chinacharger, FMIC, injectors, the lot, not just pure junk.

I love my MSM but the turbo and ECU definately suck. I hate the gearing too. I can't even cross an intersection with out going into 2nd and on my way to 3rd. I really want to throw a 5speed in it.

Bingo. 4K is a estimate for top of the line stuff and no home-fab. 200WHP is doable for much less.

It's that bad? Back when I looking at gearing (like that's the first thing I'd HAVE to do) I was thinking that a 3.636 would be good. There is a also a 3.308 from some 80's Mazda trucks that would fit, I think. Those are probably hard to find though.

That whole no debt thing makes good sense. It would be at least a couple of thousand dollars cheaper too. I have that problem of not wanting to wait to save up that money though! Driving nothing but my Hyundai Accent for the past 20 months used up almost all of the patience I have.

Negative on that 3.3 gear..it's made of unobtanium.

Just swapping to a 3.9 would make a world of difference. It's what is in my car and I have no problem with it whatsoever....3.9>5spd swap

Try an S10 pickup :facepalm:. I hear you. But the thing is that you can get the car itself pretty quickly and do some autoXing etc as you get the parts a bit at a time.

For the price, I think a diy nb makes more sense than a msm. I love the msm, but they are a little overpriced for what they are.

MSM's have been overpriced in the Miata lineup... but as time goes on, there will be a place where the factory performance value vs. aftermarket performance value gets close. When MSM's were $15k-$16k, it was a no-brainer that you could get way more performance for your money buy building a stock NA car, even buying brand-new hi-end parts.

But now that the price of MSM's are getting some mileage on them and approaching the $10k-$12k range, the gap is closing, and will continue to close. Personally, I don't have any love for the way they look and would never buy one solely based on that... but some people are big fans of the skirts, spoilers, color, interior. And for the low 200whp range, a strong argument can be used for the MSM at $10k. For 250whp, you're still going to need to replace almost everything of the stock turbo-system at a cost similar to starting with a non-MSM... and now your 250whp MSM costs $15k. At that pricerange/powerlevel, buying a $5k NB and throwing $10k of aftermarket at it would be a no-brainer for me... if you could live without the factory MSM bodywork/interior/small penis.

For some people who never considered one before, in the coming years, the MSM is going to be something you at least have to think about to be sure you're doing all the homework. It's a datapoint if nothing else.

For others, a free one wouldn't be enough to get it on the short-list.

Wasn't paul running a MSM mani and turbo for a while on his DIY setup? IIRC it made some pretty good numbers.

Reason I mention that, if you happened across a MSM... Buy upgraded parts and sell the stock stuff! There is a market out there of people who only want a ~200rwhp miata that'd be willing to pay for stock stuff - I used to be one of them.

Really though, a few little things would go a long way. Things like a good intake system, 3" exhaust, & ECU changes would be things you'd have to buy for DIY turbo anyway. Hell, Crnrhrd just sold a 2004 stock MSM muffler for like $150, believe he got it for 20 bux on teh used?

Im still using the stock clutch and this is my last Dyno sheet on a mustang dyno. Granted its now starting to slip a bit but its still holding ok.

http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l1...20MSM/Dyno.jpg

ignore the crappy afr's as my fuel pump was taking a dump.

All you need to get to the 200wp mark is simple,

supra 305 injectors -$50
Ebay intercooler upgrade - 100 shipped or less
Boost controller - DIY for about 8-10 bucks
Diy intake kit - 100 or less
3in exuast from half of the downpipe all the way out to be cheap - 150 if you do it cheap at an exuast shop. You can buy a muffler at greyhoundperformance.com for cheap. - 80
FM Throttle body pipe- 90
BOV (stock one sucks) 30-150

All that comes out to about $520.00. I had a full FM intake kit on mine though which was 600 (but I got it used for 300) and youll get this:

Now if you want to step it up some more, add meth and turn the boost up 15psi. That will net you around 230rwhp

If you want to step it up even more well....:giggle:

http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l1...photo-2043.jpg
http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l1...photo-1269.jpg

How do the MSM's hold up on track?

I know people had alot of issues keeping their turbo hardware in place with turbo'ed Miatas, but how do the MSM's fair on track as far as reliability? I realize they might not be the fastest out there but if they can stay in one piece without backing out all the hardware I wouldn't mind getting one for the occasional track day (not 100% balls to the wall racing).

Since no one mentioned it and this appears to be a MSM vs NB w/ turbo thread:

I would assume the insurance premiums are higher on the MSM :)

I've only seen a few MSMs at the track days I've been to. I don't recall any of them having to do any serious wrenching between sessions if that's what you mean, though I don't know how hard they were pushing the cars.

lol @ peasants financing $10,000. :rofl:

I keep that tucked under my nuts in cash.

What's that crazy contraption behind the radiator? Is that some kind of V-mount / vented hood setup?

To the OP: I have an MSM. I see the good and the bad.

The good, as others explained:
- you get some stronger parts vs. regular NB, plus better suspension
- you get the (in my opinion) nicer bodywork plus the MS interior style
- you get the warranty on a turbo car (all expired by now however)

The bad, as I personally experienced:
- ECU tune is a pathetic joke + 6500 rev limit
- turbo can do 230rwhp, but it takes 15 psi
- downpipe/exhaust are terrible
- intercooler is a laughingstock
- intake / BOV are terrible

Finally: that "Little Enchilada" doesn't give you 200 rwhp. That is a B.S. claim by people who test with questionable dynos and/or have unsafe boost with lousy tunes and/or they're just full of shit. Reality check: L.E. kit gives you approx. 180-190 rwhp.

However, with all the same L.E. parts but using an Aburdflow 3" turboback instead of FM's downpipe and exhaust, my car dyno'd at 213 rwhp at approx. 12 psi.

Deciding factor in favor of MSM: when I drove an NA, women said, "It's so cute!" and that was all .... when I got the NB/MSM, it helped me get laid more often. :) A lot of non-car people think it's a much more upscale sports car than a lowly regular Miata.

So, you say I should just piece the upgrades together and get a tune. Thanks for the non-marketing L.E. power numbers. That is good to know.

junkie trust us MSM is a cop out. Buy a used NB with a 6 spd for 5k or so and then peice something together the biggest cost for shit is gonna be shit that is on the shelf people sell there systems everyday. research and patience are your freind.

No, I'm saying that was the right approach for my situation. YMMV.

You're welcome.

I have been waiting for a year and a half. I don't have the patience to wait any more. My ideal Miata purchase would be a 10th anniversary edition, with a hardtop, and a turbo kit already installed.

People aren't selling their 10AE's for less than $6500 or so, are they? I added up the costs of what I think I (not someone else) would probably pay for upgrading the parts, some new parts, mostly used parts. That was $4000 or so, including the clutch.

So, $5000 for the car plus $4000 is $9000 total. For another $1500 I could get a car with the 6 speed tranny, better brakes, fresher paint (paint jobs are expensive), and those ghetto-fabulous wheels (don't like them), and not have to wait for a fairly quick car. Granted, a stock MSM isn't as fast as the $9000 turbo'd NB. For an extra $1000 in upgrades though, the MSM could be made as fast as the kit I'd put together. While I'm driving the stock MSM and getting used to it, I'd have enough patience piece together the upgrades, over a year or less.

Where are you located? Prices are very dependent on that. If I go down to NM the same car is about 2500 less in most cases.

Just buy the 6 speed that FM has for sale in their salvage section (or like 4 5 speeds as spares) and all of 18 psi's stuff on the for sale. That and a late 90s car and you are good.

I'm in Huntsville, Alabama. It is northern Alabama.

low miles 1997 Mazda Miata

SHARP MAZDA MIATA MX-5, CONVERTIBLE, LEATHER, "RUBY RED"

I kind of see your point. Neither are 6spds. But they are both well below 6K asking price.

1999 Mazda Miata MX5

Nice one in Birmingham for 4500.

If 99s were that cheap around here I would shit myself.

come buy my piece of shit
$4000-6 speed
im done with these fag cars
time to go back to Volvo

Attachment 198785
Attachment 198786
= shit

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7OzLEeRxVaE
= win
0:44 for some FWD ownage

Ha! What's wrong with your car? It doesn't look like a POS.

i hate it
wonton had to pull me off it one night for beating the shit out of it

I say buy the cheaper NB with cash and then save up cash and then buy the turbo parts for cash.

aight man either the NB prices have been on the rebound or you guys dont know how to negotiate my first miata was almost a 99ae red and pretty fresh for 6500 dollars back in 03 instead i got the 92 with a hardtop etc 1 owner garage kept etc for alot less money.

I am a terrible haggler, terrible. I hate it.

Oh that's cool....considering there is no such thing as a red 99AE.:facepalm:

Newbie here. I am looking at purchasing an 05 Mazdaspeed MX-5 ($10.6K w/ 50K miles in nice shape) with the hopes of upgrading it. I am trying to figure out how to get the most bang for the buck. The major limitation I have seen so far is that I have to spend a small fortune to get decent engine management, correct? I have Subaru (Legacy GT) background so I have been spoiled - for less than $200, I bought an OBDII to USB cable and a good tuner can reflash the stock ecu with free opensource software.

I was thinking that a nice upgrade for the MS would be an upgraded turbine and compressor wheel (~700 for a BNR or Blouch upgrade) - or upgraded bolt on aftermarket turbo (if one exists for the MS), injectors and pump, intake/exhuast and tune for water/meth or E-85.

I saw a few posts back an inexpensive way to add a few bolt ons for around 200whp, but I did not see any engine management. From my experience, I would be scared to death adding mods to my car w/o being able to have it tuned properly and being able to easily log for knock, poor AFRs... But, again, I don't want to spend $2K on a standalone ECU - that's 20% of the car I'm looking at lol.

This thread has me seriously thinking that the MS is not the way to go. My goal is 250-300whp. It sounds like that is not possible with the MS without replacing the entire MS turbo system for over $5K. I also don't understand why the MS engine does not appear to be able to be boosted much higher than the earlier N/A engines. I've been running 20 psi on my Legacy GT at 5200' altitude for 2 years on the stock engine with no problems, but as I understand it - no way that will happen on a MS engine without rebuilding it?

Sorry for the newbie questions, but a lightweight high whp car has always intrigued me and the car I am looking at seems like a good deal, but I don't want to regret buying it given my power goals. Any advice would be appreciated.

You basically (based on my research reading) need to upgrade the intake, downpipe, exhaust, and intercooler. Then you'll need a tune. I'm not sure how the "tune part" happens. There is an ECU called the Adaptronic that seems to be used by a lot of forum members. I priced a used one of those for $700. With that thing, you can even add traction control.

All of that (used) would put you at just under $2000 without labor.

Modding the MSM is a slippery slope in regards to power. Once you get a new intake, fmic, and TB elbow you're gonna really see some short comings, at leas IMO. First is that you're going to have a hesititaion from closed to open loop that needs to be addressed by either an O2 modifier or a new ECU. Second, for me, is the gearing. Stocking the gearing is about perfect once you add any sort of power adder 1st becomes worthless and second isn't much better. It gets worse the more power mods you do. I love my MSM and wouldn't trade for anything but like I said it's pretty downhill once you start messing with it.

I would check this thread: http://forum.miata.net/vb/showthread.php?t=367797

05pearl- 20lbs in a mazdaspeed will get you over 350whp with the proper turbo. That's a lot of powa. The NAs run more boost because they're a little stronger but 15psi in an NA is about equivilant to 12psi in an NB because of displacement.

I recommend upgrading and keeping the stock turbo and ecu first. 190hp really is pretty darn good and you can tear some shit up with the stock mazdaspeed suspension. If you really want the extra 30-40hp you can rip out all the stock turbo shit and go aftermarket. It won't cost you $5000 though if you buy used. I've seen total package FM2 kits w/ Hydra for sale here for welll under $5K. And on http://mazda-speed.com there are a lot of used mazdaspeed upgrades for sale as well.

What I really recommend is buying a pre-built turbo'd NB. Nice ones come on sale here about once a month. That would cost you about the same as the mazdaspeed and it would be much more badass.

I picked up my 04 MSM with 11k miles for 12k. 1 owner never seen rain. I bought everything in the LE kit used for $500. Can't beat the value of these cars.

What is the LE kit?

Little Enchilada from FM.

Old thread but my 2 cents
 

We shopped Miatas for some time. We have owned NA's and NB's, we also looked at NC's. Our priorities were road worthiness, comfort, style and flat out speed. The car will eventually become a dedicated track car but we wanted to drive it while we were building, so it had to be nice.

Late model, low mileage NB's were high. MSMs were only slightly higher. In fact after some smart shopping we found a FM-Little Enchilada modified, 05' for nearly exactly the same money as an 04-05 NB. It also had $2k or so of other upgrades. In essence, it is ready for a bigger turbo and an ECU and it should be ready to rock

Is it fast? Not yet. It handles well enough. It has great seats and a stiff chassis. It handles much better than a stock NB. But at that price the turbo and intercooler etc were free. The MSM is a nice car that has features well beyond just the turbo. We considered the turbo and ECU as throw aways. Generally speaking we just thought it was a nicer car for about the same money.

So,

1. Short first gear sucks, six speed does not suck (we'll change gears) ($400)

2. It has a wimpy turbo (we'll yank it and the mani and replace them with something more substantial) ($2k)

3. The ECU bites (MS, here we come) ($1k)


When I am done, what do I have? A gorgeous limited production car, that is fast, handles well and cost me a few bucks more than a standard NB. For me it was a no brainer.

Thank you!

I have to laugh at the fucking asshats on M-S/mnet who are all about swapping to a 5-spd citing the 6-spd is shitty and too short. It's far wiser to swap the 4:10 for a 3:9 or 3:6.....not that the 6,500rpm redline on the MSM was a great idea either. People swapping out the 6spds will soon figure out how weak they are north of 200rwhp.

I dunno if anyone mentioned it, but that's not true. Most insurance companies think/treat it as though its a standard NB model. Not sure why. Both wawanessa and Geico In my experience.

also, 240hp is pretty do-able with an upgraded turbo, 250-260 with methanol pretty easy. Leatherface as you saw went nuts and squeezed about all he could out of the stocker.

I'd say upgraded intercooler piping/intake is the biggest bang for the buck on the car, period. 3" exhaust is a bit excessive but certainly helps spool.

Before you make such a dumb, generalized statement, you should realize everyone's exerpience with the MSM 6-speed is different, dude. You do realize we have some synchro and shift gate problems in that box right from the getgo, right? I've had my car for 40k miles now, and when I first got it the synchro's were just starting to suck, by this year the car was just a pain in the ass to shift. Its not the worst manual I've ever driven, and I didn't really miss shifts, but there is a lot more effort and no positive feel to that stupid trans. I'd say it feels like its 15yrs older than it really is, like my older Audi or chevy. So, I figurd instead of rebuilding it, a $150 5-speed was a better option. At this point in time, pretty sure it still was a better option.

Get back to me when 3rd or 4th gear has no teeth, I might change my mind.

My car felt like absolute dog shit daily driving it to work on the 6 speed and 4.10 torsen + act 6 puck clutch. It was absolutely unbearable. Sit in traffic for an hour or two on that setup and you want to drive your car into the nearest wall.

Now to be fair, the 6 puck was one of the bigger reasons it was such a PITA, but even on the same clutch but on a 5 speed + open rear my car is much much smoother now.

If I blow the 5 I'll get another for 150-200.

Thought seeing how many on here are making big power on 5 speeds I think I have a decent chance of it surviving at least a year or two.

Not disagreeing with you guys but I have had many, many cars and find the 6 speed in the MSM to be delightful. Mine shifts like a Rolex.

Ever drive a Porsche? My Carrera shifted like a Scwhinn, my C5 only slightly better. One of the downfalls of both cars, is that they don't like to be in traffic. They are meant to run up through the gears and get to speed and stay there. 6 speeds are not ideal if you are in stop and go traffic. They are meant to be at speed and give you the proper RPM range for passing or pulling yourself out of a corner etc. If you are in stop and go traffic I would opt for a 5 speed for the sake of your sanity and the life of your wrist.

I love this gear box, but certainly agree that it is geared wayy too short. I would enjoy it much more if I didnt have to shift into second 1.004 seconds into my drive. That can be fixed by a rear gear change. I think highly boosted cars especially need to change the rear gear. Then you have a great tranny for track days and open roads. You gain a bit of speed on the top end as well, with a slight boost in mileage.

I confess, I didnt know people were having any more problems with them than the 5 speed. I'd hate to pay for a rebuild, but I would.

Also did you guys notice how many 6 speeds have been breaking lately? Granted, they are non-MSM but still.

Each one of those has been whored on though.

Well yeah, but isn't that the whole point of getting a 6 speed? Because its bullet proof? Or so we thought anyway

The MSM is a bargain. I ran 230whp on mine with stock injectors and ecu with some resistor hacks. The silver bilsteins are a great shock with some higher rated springs they actually ride smoother. Switch those 17's for 15's and profit.

Bad
ECU
Wheels

Good
Valve Cover
Oil Cap
Shocks (silver Bilsteins)
Sways (eibach)
torsen type 2 with better lock up characteristics
beefy axels
abs works great with good brakes and crap tires
aero
mazdaspeed exhaust
6speed
sport brakes
99 head

Do you realize that there are TWO 6-spd turbo Miatas in my garage? The MSM having 60k on it and the shifting is a smooth as silk. Fluids never been changed, and the car (my gf's) has all the bolt-on mods...stock hp went out the door many miles ago. Mine has been beat to hell and back and is just fine. Driving the 6spd + 4:1 back to back with the 6psd + 3:9 reveals the night and day difference how the gearing feels. I've killed 2 or 3 5spd transmissions around the 190-200rwhp mark..and I've treated my 6spd the same way and it takes the abuse and asks for more. Sure the 5spd can be picked up cheap, but why leave your ass out to dry and risk that fucker tanking at the most unconventional time? Did you bother to try different fluids or replace the bushings?

I really think a lot of it comes down to how people have been treating the 6spd transmissions. Also, replacing a part that is known to be robust with a weaker one makes little sense to me...I mean, would you buy a condom because it is proven to keep you from having a firedick but has less feel, or a cheap condom that is known to fail but feels better?

BTW- I am currently borrowing a 94 and the 5spd in that thing is really pissing me off. It sucks. Not gearing, but effort is way too high.