Mazdaspeed Miatas are a bargain!
03-13-2010, 08:45 PM
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Mazdaspeed Miatas are a bargain!
I have been looking at prices for DIY turbocharging 1999-2000 Miatas. My total cost of parts needed to get a Miata at 200whp comes up to around $4000 or so. I started a thread on that DIY cost a few months ago. Add the $4000 DIY cost to the cost of a 1999 or 2000 car (about $5000) and you are at $9000.
I can get a 2004 Mazdaspeed Miata with 50-60k miles for $10,000 - $11,000. The best part is that I can finance the "turbo kit" part of the MSM. I realize that I will need to spend $1000 or so to get the MSM to 200whp though. However, some guys are selling their MSM's with the Flyin' Miata "Little Enchilada" package for $11,000. That package is supposed to put the MSM at 200whp, which happens to be within the capacity of the stock MSM clutch.
I don't know why the prices on turbo'd 1999-2000 cars are so high, when a guy can spend a little bit more for a newer car, that is factory turbo'd, and has a stronger gearbox. It seems that the MSM is a bargain, for me. I want the NB body style and 200whp (for starters).
I can get a 2004 Mazdaspeed Miata with 50-60k miles for $10,000 - $11,000. The best part is that I can finance the "turbo kit" part of the MSM. I realize that I will need to spend $1000 or so to get the MSM to 200whp though. However, some guys are selling their MSM's with the Flyin' Miata "Little Enchilada" package for $11,000. That package is supposed to put the MSM at 200whp, which happens to be within the capacity of the stock MSM clutch.
I don't know why the prices on turbo'd 1999-2000 cars are so high, when a guy can spend a little bit more for a newer car, that is factory turbo'd, and has a stronger gearbox. It seems that the MSM is a bargain, for me. I want the NB body style and 200whp (for starters).
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03-13-2010, 08:49 PM
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The first thing a MSM needs is a ECU. I would go with the hydra and thats 2k. But you could get something for around 1000 bucks. Its not much cheaper to upgrade the MSM then to get a FM2 for a NA miata.
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03-14-2010, 12:12 AM
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I think the MSM is a great starting platform, IMHO. Even cheezy as they are I personally like the little styling differences on them. Colors, the lip, headlights, rear bumper, interior, etc.
Even the bone stock one we had a couple years ago was really peppy, the transmission felt fantastic and had enough power to have a good deal of fun.
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03-14-2010, 12:19 AM
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Its great to start with if you only have mild goals. Add a bigger intercooler, and charge pipes, intake, etc. Turn the boost up a little.
But if you plan on making serious power its not really worth it since youll end up replacing the entire setup
But if you plan on making serious power its not really worth it since youll end up replacing the entire setup
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03-14-2010, 12:24 AM
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I own one of these faggy cars so, I might as well add my 2 cents here. IMO the real reward with purchasing an MSM is not the turbo. The turbo itself is somewhat limited, the manifold sucks dongs, and the ecu is a joke.
The real goodies are the beefier rear axles, the transmission, the differential, the bilstein dampers, upgraded sway bars, the steering rack, and the headlamps. Now you might say 'hey wait, you can get all that queer **** on a special edition or LS NB2 car anyways,' but I assure you the MSM has 'special' gears, different dampers, a different steering rack, and visibly larger rear axles. The differential is up for interpretation as most do not like the 4.1 final drive, but that can be changed.
The real goodies are the beefier rear axles, the transmission, the differential, the bilstein dampers, upgraded sway bars, the steering rack, and the headlamps. Now you might say 'hey wait, you can get all that queer **** on a special edition or LS NB2 car anyways,' but I assure you the MSM has 'special' gears, different dampers, a different steering rack, and visibly larger rear axles. The differential is up for interpretation as most do not like the 4.1 final drive, but that can be changed.
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03-14-2010, 01:02 AM
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I see 99s for sale at 5K fairly often and the prices around here are higher than the norm as near as I can tell.
For 200WHP, you need a turbo and the exhaust side stuff (about 2500 if you get good stuff new, much much cheaper if you do any fab yourself or source things used), an ECU (get MS and hook it up as detailed in the sticky - 400) and then an IC, injectors, and lets throw in a clutch.
I guess that theoretically comes to 9 grand total, but then again thats about what you need for 230+ WHP, let alone 200WHP. And if you use RX7 injectors, a cheapo log mani, home made DP, internal gate, etc, its a good bit cheaper.
I would love an MSM, but frankly I would rather get a 99, slowly mod it, avoid any debt whatsoever, and end up with 30 to 40 more WHP. I would definitely get the MSM if I was in the money, but I am not. This also has the advatage of allowing me to do the driver mod in highly economical autoX classes where if I am not doing well I know it is me, not the car.
For 200WHP, you need a turbo and the exhaust side stuff (about 2500 if you get good stuff new, much much cheaper if you do any fab yourself or source things used), an ECU (get MS and hook it up as detailed in the sticky - 400) and then an IC, injectors, and lets throw in a clutch.
I guess that theoretically comes to 9 grand total, but then again thats about what you need for 230+ WHP, let alone 200WHP. And if you use RX7 injectors, a cheapo log mani, home made DP, internal gate, etc, its a good bit cheaper.
I would love an MSM, but frankly I would rather get a 99, slowly mod it, avoid any debt whatsoever, and end up with 30 to 40 more WHP. I would definitely get the MSM if I was in the money, but I am not. This also has the advatage of allowing me to do the driver mod in highly economical autoX classes where if I am not doing well I know it is me, not the car.
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03-14-2010, 01:45 PM
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4K to get to 200rwhp?
FWIW, I've spent about 1,700ish on my turbo, and I'm shooting for 200rwhp... This is with a standalone, FM mani, Begi DP and chinacharger, FMIC, injectors, the lot, not just pure junk.
FWIW, I've spent about 1,700ish on my turbo, and I'm shooting for 200rwhp... This is with a standalone, FM mani, Begi DP and chinacharger, FMIC, injectors, the lot, not just pure junk.
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03-14-2010, 05:11 PM
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It's that bad? Back when I looking at gearing (like that's the first thing I'd HAVE to do) I was thinking that a 3.636 would be good. There is a also a 3.308 from some 80's Mazda trucks that would fit, I think. Those are probably hard to find though.
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03-14-2010, 05:16 PM
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I see 99s for sale at 5K fairly often and the prices around here are higher than the norm as near as I can tell.
For 200WHP, you need a turbo and the exhaust side stuff (about 2500 if you get good stuff new, much much cheaper if you do any fab yourself or source things used), an ECU (get MS and hook it up as detailed in the sticky - 400) and then an IC, injectors, and lets throw in a clutch.
I guess that theoretically comes to 9 grand total, but then again thats about what you need for 230+ WHP, let alone 200WHP. And if you use RX7 injectors, a cheapo log mani, home made DP, internal gate, etc, its a good bit cheaper.
I would love an MSM, but frankly I would rather get a 99, slowly mod it, avoid any debt whatsoever, and end up with 30 to 40 more WHP. I would definitely get the MSM if I was in the money, but I am not. This also has the advatage of allowing me to do the driver mod in highly economical autoX classes where if I am not doing well I know it is me, not the car.
For 200WHP, you need a turbo and the exhaust side stuff (about 2500 if you get good stuff new, much much cheaper if you do any fab yourself or source things used), an ECU (get MS and hook it up as detailed in the sticky - 400) and then an IC, injectors, and lets throw in a clutch.
I guess that theoretically comes to 9 grand total, but then again thats about what you need for 230+ WHP, let alone 200WHP. And if you use RX7 injectors, a cheapo log mani, home made DP, internal gate, etc, its a good bit cheaper.
I would love an MSM, but frankly I would rather get a 99, slowly mod it, avoid any debt whatsoever, and end up with 30 to 40 more WHP. I would definitely get the MSM if I was in the money, but I am not. This also has the advatage of allowing me to do the driver mod in highly economical autoX classes where if I am not doing well I know it is me, not the car.
Last edited by spacejunkiehsv; 03-14-2010 at 05:21 PM. Reason: Longer penalty box time than I thought
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03-14-2010, 09:56 PM
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That whole no debt thing makes good sense. It would be at least a couple of thousand dollars cheaper too. I have that problem of not wanting to wait to save up that money though! Driving nothing but my Hyundai Accent for the past 20 months used up almost all of the patience I have.
. I hear you. But the thing is that you can get the car itself pretty quickly and do some autoXing etc as you get the parts a bit at a time.
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03-15-2010, 02:28 AM
#18
MSM's have been overpriced in the Miata lineup... but as time goes on, there will be a place where the factory performance value vs. aftermarket performance value gets close. When MSM's were $15k-$16k, it was a no-brainer that you could get way more performance for your money buy building a stock NA car, even buying brand-new hi-end parts.
But now that the price of MSM's are getting some mileage on them and approaching the $10k-$12k range, the gap is closing, and will continue to close. Personally, I don't have any love for the way they look and would never buy one solely based on that... but some people are big fans of the skirts, spoilers, color, interior. And for the low 200whp range, a strong argument can be used for the MSM at $10k. For 250whp, you're still going to need to replace almost everything of the stock turbo-system at a cost similar to starting with a non-MSM... and now your 250whp MSM costs $15k. At that pricerange/powerlevel, buying a $5k NB and throwing $10k of aftermarket at it would be a no-brainer for me... if you could live without the factory MSM bodywork/interior/small *****.
For some people who never considered one before, in the coming years, the MSM is going to be something you at least have to think about to be sure you're doing all the homework. It's a datapoint if nothing else.
For others, a free one wouldn't be enough to get it on the short-list.
But now that the price of MSM's are getting some mileage on them and approaching the $10k-$12k range, the gap is closing, and will continue to close. Personally, I don't have any love for the way they look and would never buy one solely based on that... but some people are big fans of the skirts, spoilers, color, interior. And for the low 200whp range, a strong argument can be used for the MSM at $10k. For 250whp, you're still going to need to replace almost everything of the stock turbo-system at a cost similar to starting with a non-MSM... and now your 250whp MSM costs $15k. At that pricerange/powerlevel, buying a $5k NB and throwing $10k of aftermarket at it would be a no-brainer for me... if you could live without the factory MSM bodywork/interior/small *****.
For some people who never considered one before, in the coming years, the MSM is going to be something you at least have to think about to be sure you're doing all the homework. It's a datapoint if nothing else.
For others, a free one wouldn't be enough to get it on the short-list.
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03-15-2010, 09:49 AM
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Wasn't paul running a MSM mani and turbo for a while on his DIY setup? IIRC it made some pretty good numbers.
Reason I mention that, if you happened across a MSM... Buy upgraded parts and sell the stock stuff! There is a market out there of people who only want a ~200rwhp miata that'd be willing to pay for stock stuff - I used to be one of them.
Really though, a few little things would go a long way. Things like a good intake system, 3" exhaust, & ECU changes would be things you'd have to buy for DIY turbo anyway. Hell, Crnrhrd just sold a 2004 stock MSM muffler for like $150, believe he got it for 20 bux on teh used?
Reason I mention that, if you happened across a MSM... Buy upgraded parts and sell the stock stuff! There is a market out there of people who only want a ~200rwhp miata that'd be willing to pay for stock stuff - I used to be one of them.
Really though, a few little things would go a long way. Things like a good intake system, 3" exhaust, & ECU changes would be things you'd have to buy for DIY turbo anyway. Hell, Crnrhrd just sold a 2004 stock MSM muffler for like $150, believe he got it for 20 bux on teh used?
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03-15-2010, 10:08 AM
#20
I can get a 2004 Mazdaspeed Miata with 50-60k miles for $10,000 - $11,000. The best part is that I can finance the "turbo kit" part of the MSM. I realize that I will need to spend $1000 or so to get the MSM to 200whp though. However, some guys are selling their MSM's with the Flyin' Miata "Little Enchilada" package for $11,000. That package is supposed to put the MSM at 200whp, which happens to be within the capacity of the stock MSM clutch.
ignore the crappy afr's as my fuel pump was taking a dump.
All you need to get to the 200wp mark is simple,
supra 305 injectors -$50
Ebay intercooler upgrade - 100 shipped or less
Boost controller - DIY for about 8-10 bucks
Diy intake kit - 100 or less
3in exuast from half of the downpipe all the way out to be cheap - 150 if you do it cheap at an exuast shop. You can buy a muffler at greyhoundperformance.com for cheap. - 80
FM Throttle body pipe- 90
BOV (stock one sucks) 30-150
All that comes out to about $520.00. I had a full FM intake kit on mine though which was 600 (but I got it used for 300) and youll get this:
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