MiataRoadster turbo valvetrain kit
 

Hey Guys,

In our continuing efforts to fill the voids we see in the Miata aftermarket, MiataRoadster is planning a 94-00+MSM turbo camshafts/shimless solid lifters/big valves/progressive beehive springs/Ti retainers/keepers/bronze guides/Viton seals valvetrain kit.

Please post here what cam grind you'd prefer to see (and why) and if we see a theme develop, we'll incorporate your wishes into our final specs.

Feel free to email me: Bill@MiataRoadster.com

Thanks,

Bill

lol, welcome to the land of milk an honey.

Sounds good. More lift, less duration please. And don't forget the exhaust cam will also work on 01+. :)

What are shimless solid lifters and how does one adjust the lash without shims?

We've found a source for solid lifters that are available with specifiable stem lengths, so no need for lash caps/shims.

How much?

I don't like the idea of the actual lifter of different heights...it's going to add excessively to the cost. You would have to purchase way too many to properly clearance the valves...not good.

Having the adjustment via shims is much cheaper.

Tony

or even generic lash caps.

I can't say too much at this point without tipping my hand to competitors, but I'll say that you are on the wrong track.

I'm still waiting to see posts suggesting lobe profile specs...

Bill

Too soon to say.

Let's see if we can get some suggestions for lobe profiles flowing first, that's the more critical issue...

Bill

I'd imagine that there are more qualified people to give you good cam profiles than miataturbo.net forum people.

Why not plan to have a nice street version and an all out version? both can have significantly more lift at least.

Not sure if he's sharing, but the only person in recent memory that made dyno proven gains with cams on his turbo is Eliminator at m.net.

It has always been my understanding that in a trubo motor you need much more lift and a little less duration, how much I have no idea.
It may be a good starting point to look at other motors with lots of aftermarket support in this area to see what numbers they use, this can at least get us started in the right direction.

Oh, I'm researching everywhere, not just here.

;-D

In my experience, MT.net members seem to know exactly what they want, that's why I'm asking them to chime in.

re: multiple versions

Let's see if we can come up with one product that people want before offering multiple ones, OK?

:)

Our initial goal, as will always be our primary focus, is to support those in our community who are pushing the envelope of Miata performance history:

http://worldsquickestmiatas.com/

Thanks,

Bill

Bill, not sure if this helps the cause, but if you check out my sig pic you'll get a feel for how overlap (and I guess duration--in terms of where the intake valve closes) will affect the power band.

But given the compromise, maybe just stock duration and gobs of lift. And a set of adjustable cam gears. gear for me. :)

i want. for 1.6.

here I sum up:


oh and randy's site suggests 9.5mm is the max without having to modify the lifter bosses in the head.

http://www.y8spec.com/images/01cylinderhead.jpg

That is an awesome read. I wonder how much opening/closing flank the hottest valve springs available can handle? That seems like the ticket to a shitload of power while still operating under the physical lift limitations of the head.

(god i have no idea what i'm talking about)

Sav, I'm sure that you'll take some sort of "Mechanisms" class at SLO. For a chapter or two during that class I'm sure you'll be going cam crazy.

Great read indeed Dan! :bigtu:

hell he can take the internal combustion engine design class if it's still offered. our textbook was the bosch bible.

Y8s, that class does sound more applicable. While I've heard a few of the Bosch books referred to as a bible, which one in particular are you talking about?

It is *crystal* clear you have never met our good friend Hustler. :hustler:

;)

I got your 3-gauge pod in this weekend, Bill. Looks perfect. :cool:

doh, my bad. it wasn't the bosch bible, it was heywood's internal combustion engine fundamentals.

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/...500_AA180_.jpg

well i know HKS makes a set of cams for the 1.6 in a 256 and 265 duration, and i know a couple people running 256 HKS cams on their evo's....it has a nice agressive rumble to it,but thats a different car and motor

in other words maybe a 256 would be good for duration?

Bill, what about offering 2 options for cams. Let's say one for a '99 head with a "standard" port&polish and the oversized valves, optimized for a standard flow that one might see with this combo on a '99 head (I say '99 because I assume anyone dropping the coin on a setup like this will be applying the parts to the best head available), and another cam that's blank, ready for a cam shop to install the valves, flow-test the head, and then grind the cam to the user's specs.

Who makes cam blanks for the Miata?

I know we at Jesel can, but they'd be expensive.

Tim, how expensive? i have been trying to get an idea what to expect once I get in the head. Someone please give me an idea. (a realistic one)

Well you know what they say,
"If you have to ask, then..."

This of course isn't anything official, but based off some recent OHC cams we've done:

One time engineering/programming: ~$250 per cam (I think both intake and exhaust cams are the same, in terms of cam cores)

After that each cam is around $400. This is just for a cam core; for most cam materials, you'd need to copper plate it, rough grind the lobes, heat treat the cam, then final grind the lobes.

I hear ya Tim...you are correct, but we can all still play the lottery and hope, lol
The head is last on my list and I have really not done a lot of reasearch on optimum components to use. I will more than likely source a 99-00 head and have it built by the same guy who is doing my machining on the block, he is good. I am getting to this prematurely, but I'd still kind of like to know what's waiting for me, curiosity killed the cat.
So you are somewhere in the $800 range for properly done cams to your builders spec, right?

Also, doesn't mazcomp sell heat treated blank? I though I read something about that...
Thanks Tim

If Mazcomp sells blanks then that's where to go for them. Because with us you'd be at $800+$250=$1025 guestimate for 2 cam blanks that aren't even coppered or heat treated yet, let alone ground to specs. Most of the cores we do end up costing the customer thousands (we just do the initial machine work, no heat treat or lobe grinding). It's overkill for street cars or anyone using "standard" heads. Now if you were to build a billet head from scratch and position the valves/journals/bearings in a different/better spot, we can make the one-off tool-steel cam core.

Damn, I missread your post then, my bad.
It makes sense though, overkill for OE heads I'm sure, no need to reinvent the wheel I guess.

Comp does offer cam blanks

Interesting plans.

Bill - I already have a built head, but with stock cams. I'd be more than happy to give you before and after feedback on the cams if you are interested...

Matt, is it a 99-00 head by any chance?

its a VVT head with all the VVT stuff removed.

Even with the VVT removed, I don't see how you could (at least "easily") run a pre VVT intake cam. Exh cam, not a problem.

sooo, about those turbo cams....

I'm still educating myself about cams, so no ETA at this point.

Please feel free to barrage me with tech articles.

Bill@MiataRoadster.com

flat tappet lifter pretty much prevent us from getting really aggressive here. If we had roller rockers or something better like that yu could get much more aggressive. You are on the right track though, fast ramp up and closing increase ve a lot!

Bill,

So to sum it all up, what is the hold up to be exact?
I would like to help if I can, I want to see this available asap so the price can come down when it is time that I build my head, lol.
I'll spend some time and try to help you out if I can.

I want to see evidence of grinds that have been proven to make HP with turbos on BP or B6.

1) cam specs
2) dyno graphs

I have not seen either in response to my OP.

Thanks,

Bill

So basically, you want to be handed specs that are already proven to work and then make cams to those specs and sell for a profit, however, you do not want anyone else to have those specs so you can corner the market.
Well ain't that a nice business model, can i haz job? lol

Here is a link posted here not too long ago, they are a reputable co. Hope this gives you some idea.
Huge variety here!

I'd like to see what a 260° duration with .393" lift would do on a dyno, I think that would be a good all around cam for turbo street cars without having to really modify the head much.

d) None of the above.

Ok, I get it, hardball, lol. :fawk:

Elliminator over at Mnet is/was using the stage 3 cams from Integral, and saw huge gains, although most people do not even dream of going anywhere near the kind of power he is making and therefore should not expect to see those kinds of gains as the gains are proportionate to the power you are already making.
All the turbo cams have one thing in common, tons of lift!!! How much lift depends on the supporting mods. There is no one cam profile that will be ideal for every BP out there as the best cam is the custom ground one, so I assume that you want to offer a reasonably priced upgrade to all the street cars on a budget. In that case I would just stick to a milder cam that still shows noticable gains with set-ups in the 200-300whp range.
Hopefully this will help you narrow down where to look for more answers.

Dan

Thanks for the birds and info.

+1

Am I in the right forum?

We're talking 500-700 RWHP.

+1

right forum here boss

Shutup, You are still a nooblet here.

Honestly, there isn't much of a market for ~600whp miata's and there never will be, then again, Bill isn't stupid and knows this as well.

Bill, don't you know that there is not a single Miata here with less than 1200rwhp? :giggle:

Oh, I finally get why I was missing it. You guys are talking about blown 302's. In that case Bill can just check out eddelbrock and borrow their specs.

Seriously though, I would like to see a cam that increases mid range torque more than anything, but the bigger gains (obviously) would be easy to acheive in the top end, where turbo's show best gains. Also, what sort of heads are you planning on testing these with, and what sort of port job? Basically, how radical is the head going to be to start?

1200rwhp??? ha! i did more with my itbs!

Hate to be a dick here...

but seriously... how can you ask people for other cam specs and then go from there for your own? I can hand you a dyno graph and spout off whatever specs I want and show you a 1200hp dyno chart and be like "there ya go, dyno proven" and you have no idea.

If I was in your position, what I would do, is I'd take my 1.8 Miata, and I'd try all the different cams available right now on the market, I.E. Mazdaspeed cams, stock cams, EXhintake cam method, and exhintake cam mod for the mazdaspeed cams. Then I'd find a '99-00 miata, or motor, and try the same thing in that motor. yeah, it's gonna take time and money, but that's how ya do it.

Dynograph yourself (remember, when you want to do something like this, you have to INVEST, and RESEARCH.) what kinds of gains you get from the different cams.

-meaty

the word here in aus is that any decent cams need head work to make the most of them.

which is why i guess that most cams for miatas are soo mild. (duration)

relatively speaking.

honda cams on the other are huge,
check the spec VI:
http://buddyclub.com.au/2007/cams/cams_1.html
319 degree duration.

Hey now... That doesn't Count!!! You're talking about apples vs watermelons here..

Thats a dual-profile ground camshaft that could be set for any RPM range you could imagine. Look at the MASSIVE difference between the two of them in lift alone, imagine the duration difference also. That first stage grind is likely a 200 degree grind with half the lift of the larger profile for some low end economy and mild grunt. Not to mention that you're talking about a cylinder head that'll flow an Olympic size swimming pool every 22.8 seconds vs OUR shitty ass cylinder heads which move about 20 ounces of water every sixteen days... From the git Honda put their bankroll in the efficiency of their cylinder head design, every bit of it. Mazda crapped something off a shelf that works well in 96% of their cars. "Well" means that, well, it just works.. Maybe not VERY well.. But good enough for the bean counters and emissions nazis.

On a side note, check out the valve clearances on those cams.. HOLY shit. Our motors are non-interference designed.. So if my timing belt breaks at 5000rpm, I replace the belt and drive on. Most of those motors.. Good night. :(

Yea, I always try to pick up the local Miatas that have a broke timming belt. Everyone thinks they have blown the motor and are suckering me. I have them running in a few hours.

http://corksport.com/store/category/...ia-engine.html

5th item down on the list. that looks pretty decent. and they'll build you a head too lol

Haha yeah, i bought a Hardtop 92 sunburst like that. I bought it for $500 kept the top and sold the car later that day for $600. The guy i sold it to had it running in no time.