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Old 03-28-2008, 03:38 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by samnavy View Post
That motor sucks... Mazda is making a bad choice, just wait and see.
Let me make a claim 6 months before the car is released and a year before any problems are noted. Oh and the claims won't be backed up or explained. FOR I AM THE DOUCHE MAN!
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Old 03-28-2008, 03:41 PM   #22
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Let me make a claim 6 months before the car is released and a year before any problems are noted. Oh and the claims won't be backed up or explained. FOR I AM THE DOUCHE MAN!
Then current MSM has that problem now.
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Old 03-28-2008, 03:42 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by samnavy View Post
That motor sucks... Mazda is making a bad choice, just wait and see.
Dude, why do you think it sucks? They make great power. If MS3 weren't wrong wheel drive, I'd totally rock one.*


*considering buying a salvage MS3 and adding AWD from the MazdaSpeed6 or Volvo 40
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Old 03-28-2008, 03:49 PM   #24
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Loki, you know me better than that... and I am out of vinegar.

Ahem...
MS3/MS6/CX7 all use the exact same MZR motor. I own an MS6. The problems associated with the motor and respective drivelines are well known. I've made several posts on this forum talking about them in depth in the past. Just go hang out on any of the specific Mazdaspeed forums and it won't take long to discover Mazda didn't do the R&D it needed to on this particular powerplant. Horrible ECU, more horrible tune, inferior internals, weak ignition system, weak fuel system, extremely sensitive sensors... the only thing guys aren't breaking are the tranny's... but since it's going to need to be long mounted in the Miata, they'll probably **** up the design of a new tranny as well. We'll see what Begi can do with it though.
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Old 03-28-2008, 03:52 PM   #25
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"Horrible" tune is true of any factory equipped turbo tuner car.
The only time I hear of failed engines (usually rods) is when the owner turned the boost up and detonation did its thing.

I think an AWD MazdaSpeed3 will be ****. And I'm excited to see the MazdaSpeed MX-5, knowing full well that adding an XEDE to it will probably net 30 whp.
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Old 03-28-2008, 03:53 PM   #26
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**** almost 30grand...why dont you just buy a 5000$ miata, put another 5000$ into it and you will have more or the same amount of hp...not a fan of the NB or NC body styles NA FTW!!!
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Old 03-28-2008, 04:11 PM   #27
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Here's the stock dyno curve of the MS3, (blue stock, red CAI)... it'll make more power with some mods of course, but shortshifting at 5500rpm is no way to be forced to drive:


The MS6 is the same ****... you hit an absolue wall at 5500rpm, it just stops pulling. Nothing short of a piggyback fixes it, and you're still fighting factory fuel cut and a host of other CEL's that pop up due to the sensitive nature of the sensors. The AWD system is the worst part of my MS6, and there are half-a-dozen known deficiencies in the hardware, guys NO-**** having their dif mounts break in half just driving down the freeway.

Sorry, but Mazdaspeed has never impressed me. I jumped the gun on buying my MS6, but I'll never buy another MS vehicle... they've just never hit it right like the SRT or SVT guys if I can compare them against another factory tuner. Nismo and Mugen are a joke so I won't go there, but production runs of 2 years per specialty car is no way to grab a fan-base.

I'd be stoked if Mazda gets it right this time, but in the end, the NC MSM is going to be another lame, half-assed, half-finished unit like the others... and it'll be around 2 years and then be gone no matter how many they sell. Even if it's fast, they'll find some other way of completely ******* it up, like only offering it with the paddle shifters or something. I dare Mazda to prove me wrong, but y'all know I'm right.
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Old 03-28-2008, 04:14 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by samnavy View Post
Loki, you know me better than that... and I am out of vinegar.

Ahem...
MS3/MS6/CX7 all use the exact same MZR motor. I own an MS6. The problems associated with the motor and respective drivelines are well known. I've made several posts on this forum talking about them in depth in the past. Just go hang out on any of the specific Mazdaspeed forums and it won't take long to discover Mazda didn't do the R&D it needed to on this particular powerplant. Horrible ECU, more horrible tune, inferior internals, weak ignition system, weak fuel system, extremely sensitive sensors... the only thing guys aren't breaking are the tranny's... but since it's going to need to be long mounted in the Miata, they'll probably **** up the design of a new tranny as well. We'll see what Begi can do with it though.
The other thing about that motor... I was at BEGi a couple of months ago getting the shop tour from Stephanie. They had a NC in there that they were doing some work on. The engine arrangement and engine bay are completely different than an NA/NB, much more crowded. It looked to me (and I think Stephanie confirmed IIRC) that it is harder to modify than the relatively open engine bay on the NA and NB.
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Old 03-28-2008, 04:33 PM   #29
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Even if it's fast, they'll find some other way of completely ******* it up, like only offering it with the paddle shifters or something.
exactly what i said..thats the new craze.

What you say seems legit, being an owner of that particular engine and all, but I do hope they fix something and do it right for the next attempt. And maybe begi could do a little magic on it get 300whp + Power hard top = good time.
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Old 03-28-2008, 05:45 PM   #30
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im actually planning to pick one up once i pay off z
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Old 03-28-2008, 09:43 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by samnavy View Post

The MS6 is the same ****... you hit an absolue wall at 5500rpm, it just stops pulling.
I can second that, its like wtf happened man, did an intercooler pipe pop off? I think this car has potential. But Mazdaspeed has a history of ******* up cars, I will have to wait and see on this one.
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Old 03-28-2008, 10:33 PM   #32
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Sorry to bring you guys down, but it ain't happening this year...
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Old 03-28-2008, 10:44 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by samnavy View Post
Nismo and Mugen are a joke so I won't go there
don't be hatin

Nismo R34 Z-Tune

On 14 January 2005, Nismo resurrected the R34 GT-R for one last tour of duty before the introduction of the anticipated next generation GT-R. Labeled as the R34 Z-tune, the Nismo engineers made the car the most powerful road-going GT-R ever created. Using rebuilt R34s with much technology borrowed from the GT500 Racing GT-Rs and endurance racing GT-Rs, the Z-tune has a 2.8 L twin turbo instead of the stock 2.6 L engine, racing pistons, connecting rods and camshafts, and an upgraded ECU, giving the Z-tune 500 hp (370 kW) and 540 Nm (400 lbft) of torque. The car became affectionately known as the "Mother of all GT-Rs" and is carries a price tag of about US$ 170,000. Nismo has stated that this car will be a limited edition, and only 20 will ever be made and sold.


but yeah i'll agree mugen blows

and +1 on mazda screwing it up by adding paddle-shifters and something shitty like blingy 18's
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Old 03-29-2008, 04:04 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by samnavy View Post
Here's the stock dyno curve of the MS3, (blue stock, red CAI)... it'll make more power with some mods of course, but shortshifting at 5500rpm is no way to be forced to drive:


The MS6 is the same ****... you hit an absolue wall at 5500rpm, it just stops pulling. Nothing short of a piggyback fixes it, and you're still fighting factory fuel cut and a host of other CEL's that pop up due to the sensitive nature of the sensors. The AWD system is the worst part of my MS6, and there are half-a-dozen known deficiencies in the hardware, guys NO-**** having their dif mounts break in half just driving down the freeway.

Sorry, but Mazdaspeed has never impressed me. I jumped the gun on buying my MS6, but I'll never buy another MS vehicle... they've just never hit it right like the SRT or SVT guys if I can compare them against another factory tuner. Nismo and Mugen are a joke so I won't go there, but production runs of 2 years per specialty car is no way to grab a fan-base.

I'd be stoked if Mazda gets it right this time, but in the end, the NC MSM is going to be another lame, half-assed, half-finished unit like the others... and it'll be around 2 years and then be gone no matter how many they sell. Even if it's fast, they'll find some other way of completely ******* it up, like only offering it with the paddle shifters or something. I dare Mazda to prove me wrong, but y'all know I'm right.

I too own a MS6 and have zero regrets of buying it. Mine was one of the very first produced, 2 years ownership, 14,000 miles and absolutely no problems what so ever. Running a VTA BOV (no cel), stock intake, knockoff of CP-E 3" Catback w/resonator and no muffler. My car pulls just fine to redline and I've launched the ******* holy **** out of it more than 50 times ******* with people.. Like, 5000rpm HARD launches where the car starts to get away from me in directions other than straight.

Problems/service to date:

ECU Reflash
Advance Keyless antenna failure
Tires
Oil.

I constantly hear people crying about how much they hate the car, how its such a piece of **** and I honestly couldn't be happier. Best $21,900.00 I EVER spent.

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Old 03-29-2008, 09:53 AM   #35
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Loki, you know me better than that... and I am out of vinegar.
I know I just wanted to hear your thoughts.

I want to feel you on the inside.
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Old 03-29-2008, 11:06 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elesjuan View Post
I too own a MS6 and have zero regrets of buying it. Mine was one of the very first produced, 2 years ownership, 14,000 miles and absolutely no problems what so ever. Running a VTA BOV (no cel), stock intake, knockoff of CP-E 3" Catback w/resonator and no muffler. My car pulls just fine to redline and I've launched the ******* holy **** out of it more than 50 times ******* with people.. Like, 5000rpm HARD launches where the car starts to get away from me in directions other than straight.
Problems/service to date:
ECU Reflash
Advance Keyless antenna failure
Tires
Oil.
I constantly hear people crying about how much they hate the car, how its such a piece of **** and I honestly couldn't be happier. Best $21,900.00 I EVER spent.
I haven't had any problems either, and overall it's been a great car for me. But go for a drive in a few other AWD cars... Audi, Subie, etc... and you'll see/feel the difference in the Mazda AWD system. I promise you, it sucks.
And there's no doubt that it's fast. C&D went 0-60 in 5 seconds flat. That's fast! But also promise you it doesn't PULL to redline. The ECU dumps in a ****-ton of fuel at 5500rpm, the AF goes rich down in to the 9's and you lose 100whp in 500rpm. The graph above is very clear, and that's for an MS3. The MS6 is worse.

Of course you can rev it to redline and the car will still accelerate, but it's not "pulling" anymore. How can you still be "pulling" at 6k RPM's when the AF is at 9:1 and it's only making 120whp? The interior and fit and finish is pretty good, and they look the **** over a standard 6, but the motor and AWD system are really bad. They just are. I wish I'd bought a couple year old TL TypeS for the same price.
[img]http://www.auto123.com/ArtImages/81147/2007-Acura-TL-Type-S-i003.jpg[/img
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Old 03-29-2008, 11:45 AM   #37
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Sam, you don't happen to have a dyno of the ms6 or 3 with boost logged? I've always thought that it was that tiny, tiny turbo on it that made it run out of huff.
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Old 03-29-2008, 12:32 PM   #38
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Stock turbo has room to grow. Stock usually shows between 225-240whp. Guys run close to 300whp through the stocker at it's limits. Getting more means GT3071. I'll check my MS6 forum to see if somebody has some boost logs. But the boost is another issue... some guys see 20psi spikes down to 13psi for the same power as guys running 16psi flat all the way through. The stock turbo is another issue, LOTSA guys with leaking units... more than I've seen on any other factory turbo car. Why couldn't they have been a just an IQ point higher at Mazda engineering and gone with a Garrett like in the Protege.

Here's a stock MS6 graph showing HP/TQ/AF/Psi. You can see at 5500, boost is done, AF's are below 11 by 6k, and power is done... there's more power at 2k than at 6k. If they put this motor in the NC, it'll be exactly the same... and they'll probably run the low-boost tune they put in the CX-7, so it'll be rated for 240hp and put down 210whp. Of course an Xede, injectors, GT3071 DP, exhaust, intake, etc... will get you 300whp, but it'll be $5k just like it is now to get that kind of power from an NA.

I know I sound like a hater, but I bought my MS6 believing all the Zoom-Zoom hype and that this MS car was going to be different... and it's the worst one.
Attached Thumbnails
Msm Nc-graph.jpg  

Last edited by samnavy; 03-29-2008 at 12:47 PM.
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Old 03-29-2008, 02:41 PM   #39
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Sam, all it needs is an Xede. $900



Just imagine if you added an intake, exhaust, and FMIC
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Old 03-29-2008, 04:01 PM   #40
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I think I remember reading somewhere that the MS6 had a boost-cut that would kick in pretty often if the ECU thought the fuel was < 93? I know you have access to 93 in VA, Sam, and I don't doubt you run it. But if the ECU thought... maybe that's where the power loss is coming from. Any of the MS6 guys use WI?
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