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Old 08-23-2008, 05:40 PM   #1
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Default Pistons and Valve Springs

While I've got my motor apart, I'm thinking of retiring the '97 OEM pistons I've got in my 2000 block, and putting in some from Wieso or similar. Shave a little weight, gain a little strength. I'd like to have a few more revs available to me as well.

I've already got Carillo H-beams, and that oil pump gear set on the way. I'm thinking of getting the crank-cap brace from a 2k1 motor... Have to see what it costs, I think you need to get the windage tray with it?

I'm wondering, FM sells a set of springs, single springs, with retainers, etc, and I found a set on ebay - the FM's claim 9k rpm, which I don't know if that includes heavier valves (slight oversize, on the other hand, I think the ferrea's are a bit lighter?). But I wonder if anyone has any feel on either of these.

Same for the FM pistons. Their weiscos have a coating on the skirt, wouldn't that just wear off in 15 miniutes? Maybe not. Does it buy you anything, or is a set of weiscos a set of weiscos?

With the rest of the upgrades, this should make a pretty bulletproof motor. And it would be one I'd feel completely comfortable throwing some cams at. Don't want to waste money on what I don't need, but if there's some reason to choose one over another, I'd love to hear it.
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Old 08-23-2008, 06:00 PM   #2
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The forged pistons actually weigh a bit more than the stockers IIRC. still would not be a bad upgrade.

Crank-gap brace? it is the windage tray. I run one in my 97, it will require the 01+ oil pan.

With the valve springs, MBSP and oil pump, in addition to the mods you have already I'd see no problem with occasional runs to 9k.

I have stock 99 valve springs, oversized valves, ETD rods, and a stock oil pump, and have been revving to 8k on occasion and all is fine so far.
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Old 08-23-2008, 06:43 PM   #3
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Yeah rods are the most important. I'd get the Wiseco pistons and not buy springs. IMO you don't need valvesprings. Lighter valves would be a plus for sure especially if you don't get springs.
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Old 08-23-2008, 07:39 PM   #4
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My machinist just ordered Mahle **** for whatever I didn't provide.

belfab sells Supertech valvetrain which everyone apparently is the hottest **** on earth.
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Old 08-23-2008, 08:23 PM   #5
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i've got the supertech valvetrain plus shim-under-bucket lifters to go in mine when I get around to it. I'd strongly suggest looking at the conversion for the lifters if you plan to run 9000 rpm.
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Old 08-24-2008, 02:51 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stealth97 View Post
The forged pistons actually weigh a bit more than the stockers IIRC. still would not be a bad upgrade.

Crank-gap brace? it is the windage tray. I run one in my 97, it will require the 01+ oil pan.
'01 oil pan? ****, yo umean a 00 oil pan wouldn't work? I heard it was the brace and the windage tray you had to get. The oil pan is like 35 lbs of alum, can't be cheap!


Quote:
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My machinist just ordered Mahle **** for whatever I didn't provide.

belfab sells Supertech valvetrain which everyone apparently is the hottest **** on earth.
Belfab? user on this board?

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Originally Posted by y8s View Post
i've got the supertech valvetrain plus shim-under-bucket lifters to go in mine when I get around to it. I'd strongly suggest looking at the conversion for the lifters if you plan to run 9000 rpm.
Interesting - why? Are they lighter? With solid springs, loosing shims shouldn't be an issue, so I don't know why people make that change? Let me know.
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Old 08-24-2008, 03:53 AM   #7
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Quote:
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Belfab? user on this board?
http://belfabracing.com/
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Old 08-24-2008, 12:17 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AbeFM View Post
'01 oil pan? ****, yo umean a 00 oil pan wouldn't work? I heard it was the brace and the windage tray you had to get. The oil pan is like 35 lbs of alum, can't be cheap!



Belfab? user on this board?


Interesting - why? Are they lighter? With solid springs, loosing shims shouldn't be an issue, so I don't know why people make that change? Let me know.

look around for MBSP for the "brace" you refer to. Main bearing support plate. Bill Wilner sells one.

And the shim under bucket setup is both lighter and will never throw a shim. Your recent experience with variable valve adjustments should be VERY aware of the potential to throw shims from the top of the lifters...
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Old 08-24-2008, 03:30 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AbeFM View Post
'01 oil pan? ****, yo umean a 00 oil pan wouldn't work? I heard it was the brace and the windage tray you had to get. The oil pan is like 35 lbs of alum, can't be cheap!
You could use a earlier 1.8 oil pan, but you would need to machine (dremel/grind) it to fit the lip of the MBSP, which is main bearing support/windage tray all in one piece. If you did grind it to fit, no gurantee your oil pan wont leak.

as another datapoint, IF you use ARP main studs (why the hell wouldent you) you will need to grind the ends of the studs down so that the MBSP can fit, that sounds worse than it is, its only a few mm, keep the studs oiled and grind slowly so they wont get hot.

the MBSP that bill wilner sells is setup for the high dollar main caps he also sells. I dont know if it will fit the stock caps, at a minimum, you would need a new center main cap that does not have the threaded bosses for the center main cap support - the stock MBSP does not attach to it anyway.

just look for a used 01+ pan+mbsp, I got mine from m.net classifieds for $100, with hardware, which was apparently a steal...
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Old 08-24-2008, 04:20 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AbeFM View Post
Same for the FM pistons. Their weiscos have a coating on the skirt, wouldn't that just wear off in 15 miniutes? Maybe not. Does it buy you anything, or is a set of weiscos a set of weiscos?
From my understanding, all Wiesecos have the skirts coated.
The main benefit here is the break-in process, the dry-film lube helps to keep the scratches to a minimum on first start up and long thereafter. Those coatings are pretty tough, they will not wear out in 15min. They tend to last the life of the motor in most cases. If you do go with forged pistons, still get the crowns coated as well, I hear nothing but great stuff from any engine builder I have talked to so far.
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Old 08-24-2008, 04:31 PM   #11
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Ok, that clears a few things up - I haven't seen the MBSP in any mazda documentation, and it didn't look much different in their hand sketches than my '00 windage tray.

Hmmmm, the MSM oil pan has a oil return hole already in it! :-) I just need to find a junked '01 block I guess. I knew a guy with a spun bearing, but I don't think he's parting the motor. Waiting for this oil pump gear set to come in is opening a lot of doors here in terms of timing. I have a lead on a $300 6 speed, but it's "tired" and I can't imagine rebuilding it for less than it'd cost to just find another 6 speed somewhere.
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Old 08-24-2008, 05:03 PM   #12
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Hey Abe, what's wrong with said "tired" 6 speed? FWIW I have a kia motor with the MBSP and I'm looking for an 01+ oil pan too so it will fit the miata and clear the MBSP. But I'm not in a rush for one so If i find one I'll let ya' know.
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Old 08-28-2008, 02:04 PM   #13
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Well, it looks like the head shop finally owned up, rather, they didn't but they effectively said the head is unusable. They said "trust us, buy the parts, it'll run fine and for a long time", but when asked to see that in writing since it's all out of spec, the response was more simple: No.

So I finally bought a VVT head, it hasn't shown up yet - I hope it's in good shape! But it changes my spending profile a bit. I still need to figure out what I'm getting. It might be a good time to just throw pistons at the motor since it's open and I'll be pulling the oil pan anyway for the fancy pump gears.

I definitely want a MBSP and associated pan if I can get one. I could probably live without the pan? Fancy valve springs are still worth it I suppose, titanium bits should save a little weight. Certainly this is the time for a 6 speed swap, too, but I always hate the $200 shipping charge.

Lastly, I have to decide if I should get bits and do the headwork myself. At least I'll have my old head as a place to start for an example. Probably reuse the stock valves and use the $400 I save to buy bits and fund my evil minions in their quest for world domination.

Anything sounding way off base here? Suggestions? Leads?
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Old 08-28-2008, 02:55 PM   #14
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Im currently working on a similar project. Ive got 99 and 01 long blocks and Im gonna put the 99 head on top of the 01 block and Im trying to put together a shopping list of parts to improve the head and bore out the cylinders. The best I can find is 3rd oversize OEM pistons to keep the factory compression. Im gonna run it with my MS-II and EDIS and ITB's for induction, of course.
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