Pricing a "mild" build
12-27-2007, 09:15 AM
#41
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The problems associated with forged pistons come from 2618 (more expansion) metal and poor machining. I went with 4130 alloy on my father's recommendation from experience with forged motors all his life. It expands less, and is only marginally less strong. Its all about the machine work, so find the best machinist on the planet. I'm using John Day in Dallas, TX. I have his # if you want it. I'm spending only $1200 for the full bottom end job and cleaning up the head. It may be worth the shipping cost since that seems remarkably cheap and his quality is respected nationwide in the SM class. However I didn't select him because of FM fame. He's built a handful of turbo track miatas which run for years and years and years.
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12-27-2007, 09:56 AM
#42
hustler, $1200 seems very cheap...way to go
but what consists of a full bottom end job, just labor i assume, but what all will he do, are you boring the block or just honing, are you balancing the crank, or are you shaving the crank any? let me know, i might as well use the same guy cause thats very reasonable...thanks
but what consists of a full bottom end job, just labor i assume, but what all will he do, are you boring the block or just honing, are you balancing the crank, or are you shaving the crank any? let me know, i might as well use the same guy cause thats very reasonable...thanks
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12-27-2007, 01:15 PM
#43
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It looks like I'll be scoring a set of Bens' rods... so first purchase complete!
I will hopefully be able to drop by Magnum Machine down in Chesapeake after work today. We'll see what it's gonna cost for the things I need done... and what kind of parts sources he's got. A good machine shop should have their own connection for coatings and what not.
RPMMachine phone message says they're out until Jan 2nd, so I can't learn what quality of parts comes in their Topline rebuild kits.
I'm borrowing a friends engine hoist and will pull the motor out tonight or tomorrow. The 200k mile motor is mine Sat morning... should have that installed and running early afternoon.
I will hopefully be able to drop by Magnum Machine down in Chesapeake after work today. We'll see what it's gonna cost for the things I need done... and what kind of parts sources he's got. A good machine shop should have their own connection for coatings and what not.
RPMMachine phone message says they're out until Jan 2nd, so I can't learn what quality of parts comes in their Topline rebuild kits.
I'm borrowing a friends engine hoist and will pull the motor out tonight or tomorrow. The 200k mile motor is mine Sat morning... should have that installed and running early afternoon.
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12-27-2007, 02:03 PM
#45
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I'm fairly certain the Toplines I'm looking at are cast... definitely going to get them coated.
Self-Threadjack in Progress:
Here's the clutchnet page of all Miata discs: http://www.clutchnet.com/search.php?mode=search
I'm looking at the 6-pucks to replace my crap Spec StgII kevlar disc. I see sprung-hub and solid-hub. The writeup for the solid hub indicates it's better suited to slipping (nice for turbo's) and is $50 cheaper... although it also indicates for race-use only. What's the tradeoff for solid/sprung?
Self-Threadjack in Progress:
Here's the clutchnet page of all Miata discs: http://www.clutchnet.com/search.php?mode=search
I'm looking at the 6-pucks to replace my crap Spec StgII kevlar disc. I see sprung-hub and solid-hub. The writeup for the solid hub indicates it's better suited to slipping (nice for turbo's) and is $50 cheaper... although it also indicates for race-use only. What's the tradeoff for solid/sprung?
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12-27-2007, 03:44 PM
#48
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Sprung is a lot smoother. I've heard unsprung is an actual on-off switch, vs. sprung just acting like an on-off switch, although I could be wrong. 
Either way, you can't go abusing **** with a 6-puck clutch. I may be the lowest horsepower turbo guy to lose a transmission (219whp).
Either way, you can't go abusing **** with a 6-puck clutch. I may be the lowest horsepower turbo guy to lose a transmission (219whp).
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12-27-2007, 04:10 PM
#49
I have both, daily driver with ACT extreme and sprung disc and race car with 4 puck unsprung.
Unsprung is for race use and doesn't leave one wondering when to go, car lurches forwards when clutch is lifted. Too violent for comfort in stop and go traffic, doable but not enjoyable.
Sprung takes the edge off as well as some of the precision and maybe ever so slight difference in time.
hrk
Unsprung is for race use and doesn't leave one wondering when to go, car lurches forwards when clutch is lifted. Too violent for comfort in stop and go traffic, doable but not enjoyable.
Sprung takes the edge off as well as some of the precision and maybe ever so slight difference in time.
hrk
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12-28-2007, 12:01 PM
#50
I just got a quote from a respectable machinest here in hawaii and it'll cost me only $600 to do all the cleaning and machine work for my block!! This includes cleaning of the block, boring the block to fit oversize pistons, honing, line boring of the block after putting in ARP main studs, Balance and blueprint the rotating assembly.
You guys thing this is a good deal?
Oh and to rebuild the head with a 3 angle valve job it'll be another $500.
You guys thing this is a good deal?
Oh and to rebuild the head with a 3 angle valve job it'll be another $500.
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12-28-2007, 02:35 PM
#52
http://www.cylinder-heads.com/details.cfm?itemid=1409 and the return shipping is included in the $350. You have 30 days to return your head after shipping the new one to you and the core. Plus no problem with bad cores being rejected. from their website:
"All heads purchased are sold plus freight. F.O.B. Clearwater, FL. CCH will provide ARS label for the return of your core. A prepaid return-shipping label is included with your order to return your core at no cost. We accept your core whether it’s cracked, disassembled, etc. All we require is that it is complete. Orders are shipped UPS Ground."
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12-28-2007, 04:33 PM
#53
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I just paid a visit to "my" machine shop.
The labor on the head is $250 which includes unshrouding the valves. Parts are extra, but he said it's rare that a head will need anything if it's been well maintained... and all the seals/etc will be included in an engine rebuild kit.
Tanking/cleaning/honing the block, and polishing the crank is $150.
It'll be approx another $400 to rebuild the motor completely.
He showed me the book they usually buy their import OEM "rebuild" kits from and it included everything that I expected... basically everything except the block/head/valvetrain/rods/crankshaft. Pistons, rings, all seals, spacers, bearings, gaskets, etc, are included... and it was $300. The book also showed various upgrades available for the OEM parts.
It's pretty much exactly what I expected.
Rods: $320
Rebuild Kit: $300 + upgrades of $150= $450
Tri-Coat pistons: $100
Labor: $800
Total of: $1700... a little slop= $1800total.
It'll probably be a little more in the end, and I do need a new clutch disc... so the consensus of $2000 for a mild build is accurate.
The labor on the head is $250 which includes unshrouding the valves. Parts are extra, but he said it's rare that a head will need anything if it's been well maintained... and all the seals/etc will be included in an engine rebuild kit.
Tanking/cleaning/honing the block, and polishing the crank is $150.
It'll be approx another $400 to rebuild the motor completely.
He showed me the book they usually buy their import OEM "rebuild" kits from and it included everything that I expected... basically everything except the block/head/valvetrain/rods/crankshaft. Pistons, rings, all seals, spacers, bearings, gaskets, etc, are included... and it was $300. The book also showed various upgrades available for the OEM parts.
It's pretty much exactly what I expected.
Rods: $320
Rebuild Kit: $300 + upgrades of $150= $450
Tri-Coat pistons: $100
Labor: $800
Total of: $1700... a little slop= $1800total.
It'll probably be a little more in the end, and I do need a new clutch disc... so the consensus of $2000 for a mild build is accurate.
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12-28-2007, 04:41 PM
#54
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Are you missing anything:
Water pump?
Oil pump?
Metal headgasket?
ARP main and head studs?
Intake mani gasket?
Clean up and port match intake mani to head?
All those little bitch *** water hoses?
motor mounts?
I don't know what kind of oil/water lines you have for your turbo, but if not braided steel you might need to replace them
Cam gears? (optional but recommended)
Plaque that says "built for samnavy" riveted to cam cover? (not optional, $2000)
Water pump?
Oil pump?
Metal headgasket?
ARP main and head studs?
Intake mani gasket?
Clean up and port match intake mani to head?
All those little bitch *** water hoses?
motor mounts?
I don't know what kind of oil/water lines you have for your turbo, but if not braided steel you might need to replace them
Cam gears? (optional but recommended)
Plaque that says "built for samnavy" riveted to cam cover? (not optional, $2000)
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12-28-2007, 04:48 PM
#55
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Are you missing anything:
Water pump?
Oil pump?
Metal headgasket?
ARP main and head studs?
Intake mani gasket?
Clean up and port match intake mani to head?
All those little bitch *** water hoses?
motor mounts?
I don't know what kind of oil/water lines you have for your turbo, but if not braided steel you might need to replace them
Cam gears? (optional but recommended)
Plaque that says "built for samnavy" riveted to cam cover? (not optional, $2000)
Water pump?
Oil pump?
Metal headgasket?
ARP main and head studs?
Intake mani gasket?
Clean up and port match intake mani to head?
All those little bitch *** water hoses?
motor mounts?
I don't know what kind of oil/water lines you have for your turbo, but if not braided steel you might need to replace them
Cam gears? (optional but recommended)
Plaque that says "built for samnavy" riveted to cam cover? (not optional, $2000)
I'm good on the water/oil hoses.
Motor mounts are new.
Intake mani gasket will come with the kit.
Water pump, oil pump I will investigate
ARP **** I'm on the fence again... it's $200 for those.
Metal HG... needed?
Cam gears... I'll start looking for a used set.
Port matching... can I do that with a Dremel?
A plaque is nice... but I want a gold one.
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12-28-2007, 05:00 PM
#56
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Definitely get the ARP hardware.
You could live without the metal HG, but it's nice. I would get it.
Yes, you should be able to clean up the intake mani yourself.
FM has a stock height metal HG, which is .050 I think.
You could live without the metal HG, but it's nice. I would get it.
Yes, you should be able to clean up the intake mani yourself.
FM has a stock height metal HG, which is .050 I think.
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06-03-2008, 10:49 AM
#59
It looks like I'll be scoring a set of Bens' rods... so first purchase complete!
I will hopefully be able to drop by Magnum Machine down in Chesapeake after work today. We'll see what it's gonna cost for the things I need done... and what kind of parts sources he's got. A good machine shop should have their own connection for coatings and what not.
RPMMachine phone message says they're out until Jan 2nd, so I can't learn what quality of parts comes in their Topline rebuild kits.
I'm borrowing a friends engine hoist and will pull the motor out tonight or tomorrow. The 200k mile motor is mine Sat morning... should have that installed and running early afternoon.
I will hopefully be able to drop by Magnum Machine down in Chesapeake after work today. We'll see what it's gonna cost for the things I need done... and what kind of parts sources he's got. A good machine shop should have their own connection for coatings and what not.
RPMMachine phone message says they're out until Jan 2nd, so I can't learn what quality of parts comes in their Topline rebuild kits.
I'm borrowing a friends engine hoist and will pull the motor out tonight or tomorrow. The 200k mile motor is mine Sat morning... should have that installed and running early afternoon.
If so, good dudes back there
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