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Old 07-18-2008, 02:02 AM   #21
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Something in the clutch/flywheel area... Sounds almost exactly like what happened when I fubared my clutch install awhile back.
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Old 07-18-2008, 03:11 PM   #22
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Sounds like a starter pin.....if you get a jack handle and a hammer and give the starter a few good taps to see if pin will disengage. This will allow you turn the motor over by hand and see if any "real" damage lies elsewhere.
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Old 07-18-2008, 07:26 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Machismo View Post
Sounds like a starter pin.....if you get a jack handle and a hammer and give the starter a few good taps to see if pin will disengage. This will allow you turn the motor over by hand and see if any "real" damage lies elsewhere.
wtf, suddenly the dallas crew is exploding on here.
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Old 07-19-2008, 08:16 PM   #24
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For an update, one of the master techs I trust here at Honda and Brian/wildfire (thanks for coming out man!) helped me out today. We got the crank turning again once we got it in the air to get some leverage on it, but it still gets stuck. It actually only makes about a 350* spin either way you go. Cyl #2 and #3 almost make it to TDC, but the stop is hard and sudden.
Got the starter off, issue remains, and starter looks fine. Driveshaft spins freely, so shouldn't be an output shaft issue. So we slid the transmission back to disengage the input shaft, tried to spin the crank again with no change. Everything about the FM flywheel and the ACT clutch look great, no bolts backed out or missing. There is a seal seeping somewhere, but no big deal.
We cut the timing belt to turn the cams to make sure that the valves were still ok, and that checked out. My new timing stuff is on the way, so didn't care about the belt. The tech and I used a different borescope and looked around during all that and agreed that everything looked good.

So I guess the next step is to take the engine out and start taking it apart... This makes no damn sense at all.

Last edited by RotorNutFD3S; 07-19-2008 at 11:44 PM.
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Old 07-19-2008, 08:46 PM   #25
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I'm calling hydrolock and a VERY strong starter.

C
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Old 07-19-2008, 09:03 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chriscar View Post
I'm calling hydrolock and a VERY strong starter.

C
What do you mean?
The starter is off, it now has nothing to do with the crank not making a full revolution. I don't even know why you think hydrolock, the plugs are out and the insides of the cylinders are dry...
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Old 07-19-2008, 09:18 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by RotorNutFD3S View Post
What do you mean?
The starter is off, it now has nothing to do with the crank not making a full revolution. I don't even know why you think hydrolock, the plugs are out and the insides of the cylinders are dry...
I think that he's implying that you hydrolocked the motor with fuel and the starter the first time you cranked it (cylinder flooded, and starter bent eh rod while cranking possibly) but I doubt this is the case, not sure what it COULD be, but i seriously doubt you bent a rod with the starter.
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Old 07-19-2008, 09:33 PM   #28
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This has to be a bent rod, but how?

Did the motor turn over several times and then stopped turning over, then you pulled out the plugs and tried again with same results, or was it still turning over completely with the plugs out?
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Old 07-19-2008, 11:40 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by KPLAFIN View Post
I think that he's implying that you hydrolocked the motor with fuel and the starter the first time you cranked it (cylinder flooded, and starter bent eh rod while cranking possibly) but I doubt this is the case, not sure what it COULD be, but i seriously doubt you bent a rod with the starter.
Oh, I see now.
I agree with your doubt.

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This has to be a bent rod, but how?

Did the motor turn over several times and then stopped turning over, then you pulled out the plugs and tried again with same results, or was it still turning over completely with the plugs out?
Almost certain it's not a bent rod. Right after we got the crank free again today, we had small, equal-length dowels sticking up out of the plug holes while we rotated the crank. Not exactly scientific, but the movement seemed right on. Cyl 2 and 3 are not quite reaching their highest point, and 1 and 4 of course are not reaching their bottom-most position.

When I went to start the engine after reinstalling the injectors, the engine never turned over once. As soon as the starter engaged, the loud noise occured. That's when I found that with plugs in or out, the crank will only make approximately a 350* circle, and then be suddenly stopped. That point cannot be passed. It's not like the normal turn, turn, turn, resistance because of compression, pass resistance, turn, turn, turn. It's turn, turn, turn, STOP!!! No matter which way you go.

I'm actually wondering if maybe one of the rod bolts has backed out some on either rod 1 or 4 and is getting caught on something (as highly unlikely as that is). Only reason I say that is because when the crank movement is stopped, it's sudden, and the resulting clunk almost sounds metal to metal. And that might explain the ~10* lack of rotation in the crank.
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Old 07-19-2008, 11:43 PM   #30
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So are you tearing the motor down now then?
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Old 07-19-2008, 11:48 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KPLAFIN View Post
I think that he's implying that you hydrolocked the motor with fuel and the starter the first time you cranked it (cylinder flooded, and starter bent eh rod while cranking possibly)
Yes. You I mean HE did say one of the plugs was wet.

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but I doubt this is the case, not sure what it COULD be, but i seriously doubt you bent a rod with the starter.
I'd be surprised that you I mean HE could bend a rod with the starter as well, but your (HIS) symptoms are pointing to a bent rod. I had a similar scenario after an SR20 engine swap. The guy I was doing the swap for, took the fuel rail home to paint it, and he installed the injectors in the rail without any lube (Vaseline works great BTW). When we went to crank the car over, the engine locked up because he fubar'd one of the bottom injector seals. Cranking it over by hand was exactly as you describe.... everything was great, I could rotate the engine nice and smooth up to a point, then it'd lock up hard. Pulling the plugs revealed a swimming pool in one of the cylinders. I fixed the o-rings, blew out the cylinders with compressed air, and we went on our merry way with no permanent damage.

C
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Old 07-19-2008, 11:52 PM   #32
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Just for the record, not my car and you quoted me...but everything you said could fit with what the OP said to, just want to make sure noone gets confused.
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Old 07-19-2008, 11:56 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KPLAFIN View Post
So are you tearing the motor down now then?
Yeah. Monday I have to get permission from the Service Manager to occupy a stall and an engine stand. I'm going to start by pulling the motor out and taking off the oil pan and seeing if I can figure something out. I'm almost certain now that the issue lies at the bottom. I'm hoping to avoid a complete teardown though, but I will definitely do it if I have to. If I do, I guess I'll be devoting some of my savings account to a forged build. Might as well.

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Yes. You did say one of the plugs was wet.
I think that's only because the injector sprayed fuel during the attempted startup and of course was never ignited. Because the plug was wet, but that was it. Nothing inside the cylinder to point to it getting flooded with fuel. And definitely nothing came out when I turned the crank to test for hydrolock.


Quote:
Originally Posted by chriscar
I'd be surprised that you could bend a rod with the starter as well, but your symptoms are pointing to a bent rod. I had a similar scenario after an SR20 engine swap. The guy I was doing the swap for, took the fuel rail home to paint it, and he installed the injectors in the rail without any lube (Vaseline works great BTW). When we went to crank the car over, the engine locked up because he fubar'd one of the bottom injector seals. Cranking it over by hand was exactly as you describe.... everything was great, I could rotate the engine nice and smooth up to a point, then it'd lock up hard. Pulling the plugs revealed a swimming pool in one of the cylinders. I fixed the o-rings, blew out the cylinders with compressed air, and we went on our merry way with no permanent damage.

C
Well, the injectors and the seals were properly lubed and installed, I took a lot of care to ensure that was done carefully and correctly.
But I really wish now that your scenario was my case! This is a real headache.
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Old 07-19-2008, 11:58 PM   #34
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Fixed

C
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Old 07-20-2008, 12:00 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RotorNutFD3S View Post
I think that's only because the injector sprayed fuel during the attempted startup and of course was never ignited. Because the plug was wet, but that was it. Nothing inside the cylinder to point to it getting flooded with fuel. And definitely nothing came out when I turned the crank to test for hydrolock.
Hrmm. Did you happen to take a whif of the dipstick to check for fuel in the oil?

C
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Old 07-20-2008, 12:56 AM   #36
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I already asked him to check that. he said no fuel in the oil. When I first spoke to rotornut I suspected hydrolock, we ruled that out because the engine would still not turn over with the plugs out. I also suspected the accessories, but he only runs a alt/wp. when the starter was rulled out, my next thought was that the ring gear slipped off the aluminum FW and contacted the block or oil pan stopping the engine, but the transmission was pulled and inspected. I have not seen this problem myself, but after everything we went over on the phone, I dont see how this problem could not be internal.

The engine could have bent a rod due to hydrolock on the first startup attempt. Seems unlikeley but I cant think of anything else to explain it.
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Old 07-20-2008, 12:59 AM   #37
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I'm probably not really on to anything here...but have you taken the injectors back out and made sure they are all 100% intact?
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Old 07-20-2008, 06:17 AM   #38
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No. Because there was no evidence of anything entering the cylinders. I will be taking them out on Monday though. I hope they're intact though, because then I'll probably be replacing a turbo too...
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Old 07-20-2008, 08:59 AM   #39
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I can't see how any FOD made it from the engine to the turbo.
And I'm still not sold on hydrolock resulting in bent rod. Complete coincidence makes more sense, unless the rod was already det damaged, cracked, weakened and about to shrapnel anyway.

Didn't you just sell your forged rods?

PS, you should be sleeping at 5am on a sunday
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Old 07-20-2008, 03:28 PM   #40
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FOD - Foreign Object Damage?
IDK how a rod would be bent either.

Yes, I just did sell the forged rods.

PS - I couldn't sleep for a bit, so I got online.
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