Rebuild Bp or go FE3?
 

I've hit a cross road.

I'm sitting here with a bp torn apart and looking at some machining, new bearings, assembly ect ect ect thinking; this is fucking gay.

Then I start thinking about swaps, the FE3. I can probably pick up a motor for the price of selling my wiseco's and rods and 99 head. Then I just need to fab up some motor mounts, intake and exhaust manifolds (was going to get new ones for the bp anyway), find a b-series bellhousing and bolt up the 6 six speed.

Or should I just rebuild the bp, I'm going to try and make close to 400whp on my next set-up and I can probably do it on the stock FE bottom end.

Decisions, decisions..


What do you guys think?

thoughts, here's some:
 

You'll have to do an adapter plate with a TII trans. That six speed is not bellhousing friendly. I think it really comes down to how you'll use the car. Fe3 is a lot taller, so that's more weight, up higher- bad for handling. Yes 400whp has been done on stock FE3s BUT none of them AFAIK have been tracked for 20 minute sessions. They're all street/drag cars. That said, guys are picking up Kia variants for as little as $200. Not too dissimilar to your Miata 5 speed scenario: so cheap you just keep spares on hand. ;)

Either engine is going to require a custom intake manifold to get that kind of power. You can use a BP turbo manifold on the FE- though not ideal, the ports are that close to the BP. The build BP is more of known entity at that power level on the track (as in road course), but even then it's not indestructible.

I think ultimately you're faced with spending more money and less time on the BP, but in the end it should be (on paper) the better package for tracking and potential. I did the FE3 because it was an inexpensive route to more power.

Considering the support and knowledge freely available here and on other sites I would stick with the BP.

I would like to see a FE3, but sounds like a fucking mission. Also knowing now that the engine seats higher that a BP was a turn-off, but is also open to what you want out of the car.

built FE3?

I still regret not taking the FE3 plunge last month when I was at the crossroads.

I've done a LOT of research into it, and it makes way too much sense. Way to easy to do.

The 2 hard parts that made me shy away were:

1. Trans adapter plate
2. Custom Aluminum welded intake manifold


And the second one of those I'm doing anyways for the B6 now.

Plus you can do it incrementally. Get the motor in, and manifold made. Mate 5 speed with B2000 bellhousing (cheap) and run n/a while you work on a turbo setup and your TII tranny. The Kia exhaust manifold is a nice piece and points the right direction for a temporary n/a exhaust.

Just do it.

...Option 3 20b rotary?

It wouldn't need an adapter plate for the TII trans and would make all the power you could handle.

In forza 3 (I know not real) my 900+hp 20b NA will easily go 340kph and turn at that speed!

I would go FE3 myself...

FE ftmfw

I did the youtube thing earlier. whoo whoo. Do the swap and document it on here.

Realistically, that would be my choice too.

They have big bearings, stronger rods and an easy stroker in using a b2200/80's mx6 crank from what I hear

I'm willing to bet the slightly higher placement won't affect handling as much as most would think, I never seem to get enough track time as I'd like anyway with this car, that's why I have a spare chassis(n/a track car build)

I just need to look at the tranny issue, I don't want a T2 trans, why can't I use a six speed and an adapter plate?

Do the FE ,and do a build thread here.
(G)

I don't think its worth it, unless you put in the 2.2L crank to stroke it out.

I think it is worth it....just for the higher stock power capacity.

You can use a junkyard motor that will handle the same amount of power as a well-built BP...STOCK. Bigger bearings ftw. The head also appears to be a better design, or at least equal in flow with a valvetrain known for taking abuse well beyond redline.

I priced out FE3s locally, and easily found a handful in the $500-700 range, and I think the $700 one was for the guy that also had the B2000 tranny that he was throwing in. If I could make 300-400whp on a motor that I could pick up spares for that cheap all day I'd do it. Like I said I'm an idiot for deciding to build my 1.6L instead.

Larger displacement is also nice. Guys spend $4K trying to get BPs up to 2.0L...why? Think it's not worth it. That displacement there is free.

Tranny and high flow intake manifolds would be the same problems and cost as any 400whp BP. How many guys pushing that have custom manis and TII or equivalent trans?

That means the only real issue is mounting the motor, which is literally two steel plates with 6 holes in them. Too easy.

Oh, and the CAS...but I'd consider a crank trigger wheel at those power levels anyway.




Replacement parts are plentiful, and cheap.


Now that I'm building a motor I hate myself. I'm going to be so scared of blowing it up it's not funny. No worries on the stock 1.6L since I can find those next to free all day long....but I will seriously cry if I kill my built motor, and I know you did too.


Think how nice it would have been to just go pick up another $500 Kia motor instead of that heartwrenching partout....

I wonder what the actual strength difference is if any? Anyone know what that 800+hp guy from Greece or eliminator77 of m.net run tranny wise? I'm sure they've btdt.

I know from my b2200 days that people dropped kia fe3's in their trucks and had mild boost running through the stock trans (same as a miata trans for those who don't know) reliably. They also had the mentality, it's $150 for a new one if I break it, so most didn't bother with a stronger trans.

Damn those FE3s look badass. WTF am I doing building a 1.6?

damn. the F3 came in the kia sportage then? going to def look into one of those. the custom intake is understandable from its FWD origin but for the exhuast i heard some people can make a bp 1.8 manifold fit? what is required? sorry for the thread jack.

as for the OP. the mental ease of knowing you can easily aquire a spare motor quickly and swap everything over in a weekends worth must feel great. but a built motor is just that...built...if you take your time and revise everything a built motor will always be better than an completely stock old motor...personally i would much rather spend money and have one motor run 20k miles than swap out a motor ever 5k miles. working on cars is fun but annoying when it gets repetative IMO.

Its looking to be cheaper to install then rebuilding my bp so I think its certainly worth the money.

If I can sell my rods and pistons I can pay for the motor...

Look into the gen1 sportage more, it has an inline mounted engine so the IM will work as long as it clears the hood.

It goes over the top of the valve cover, does not work.

It takes some cutting of the valve cover and subframe shimming to fit under the hood as-is.

If it did work though it would be nice (for WI) since it's a center-feed design.

Thanks, I wasn't sure how that would work in a miata as I know it was a tight fit in a b2200.

FE3. If you only hit the track once in awhile a inch or so of COG difference and maybe another 50 Lbs of weight (most of which is going to be behind the front axle-line. is not going to matter as much as cheap reliability.

Beyond the inherent DIY nature of this that will require a small amount of trailblazing, I dont see a real downside. I know I will be watching carefully.

You'll run into input shaft length issues if you use the adapter plate. That means you'll need a custom PP that regains your tolerance lost to the plate thickness. And your shifter will sit back that much further. The TII trans has a much shallower bell than the miata 5 spd so the adapter plate works fine.

I don't think there's much trailblazing to do at this point as far as the engine swap goes. :dunno:

^ The way it looked on the webpage posted earlier (Solomiata : Interchange : FE3 motor) an adapter plate is not needed at all if its done that way.

Not much in the way of unknown stuff at all. Fabbing mounts looks like a PITA, but then too I wonder if someone has some templates that would save time :)

i feel somehow compelled to comment on this.

i've run 7psi on a stock kia fe3 with stock engine management (the kia bosch stuff, not miata). engine lasted 150,000km. so did the trans. whatswrong with using a sportage trans? its a getrag unit from what i recall...

Why not just use an adapter plate and a flywheel spacer? Run my miata 6 speed, ok the shifter will sit 1/2" back thats fuck all. Then I can retain the miata clutch aswell.

I agree, there isnt much for trailblazing, custom motor mounts, oil pan, intake manifold, trans plate..Easy stuff.

What is a common replacement injector when going bigger?

Based on the site mentioned the injectors we tend to be familiar with will probably have sealing issues on the Kia intake mani, and he was simply going to machine in some bosses. The pics I am seeing of the FE head show the same shape that you see on the 1.6 heads which allow the injectors to basically be mounted right at the intake mani flange.

I think the same work being done with the Honda based intakes welded to the BP flange would be awesome in this case, especially considering that the FE from a Kia likely has a much more low-end focused intake anyway.

One day if one of these motors falls in my lap, this swap will be done. Ever since i saw m2cupcars car years ago ive had a hard on for it.

The custom flywheel solution was following the application set forth by Mazda- same thickness and hardware. I don't know anything about using a spacer, but I do know that I don't want any flywheel bolts sheering in my car. ;) Any examples of flywheel spacers elsewhere? I know the F8 I have came with a flexplate that had a 1/8" spacer on it- but that's totally different than clutch.

I'm using some aluminum bosses set into the kia manifold to use Rx7 injectors. But the OE mazda FE3 manifold has standard injector bosses.

Sportage- the biggest issue with the getrag are the ratios, especially using them in a 2200# car. Mazda's b2600 R trans will bolt up to FE but it's got "truck" ratios too. It is a solution, but you'll be swapping gears for something usable.

Tons of cars use flywheel spacers and adapter plates, H2b kits do, domestic kits I've seen them, it's nothin new and it's cheap and effective.

I've never made an adapter plate but I think if I make a dummy copy in wood then get a aluminum one water cut I'll be able to make it and not fuck it up too badly

Cool- I never looked into it, but that will make things simpler for me. With the bongo van bell housing I only need 10mm max spacer.

do an FE3 and show us all that we should do it.

if you run a spacer though, would the oil pan hit the subframe? or would you have to move the trans back that amount on the PPF and remove that from the driveshaft?

Since the motor mounts are custom I'll just make them to tailor fit so the driveshaft fits. I hear swaybar clearance is tight though already too.

All right Im gonna do the swap, just have to make sure my old pistons and rods are ok and sell that shit

I'll tell ya, after thinking more about this, one downside I see would be the aftermarket / enthusiast support. Sure there have been a few people that have done the swap but other than that you'd pretty much be on your own. Right now with a 1.8 or 1.6, you can easily buy any aftermarket part you need and not have to worry about fitment or compatability issues (Driveline parts, bracing, etc) , people like TurboTim and ARTech make killer parts for people and can do so since they have the abilities to mock everything up on their own cars, and setups are more proven which makes it easier for one to achieve the results they are after. I know the FE3 has loads of benifits, but the more I think about it, 250whp on a stock 1.6 or 1.8 really is a headache free bargin. Sure I'd love to have more power either by a FE3, LS1, or a built BP, but its nice not having to worry too much about blowing motors, replacing parts, and all the other unknowns.

Meh all my shit is custom made anyways, I dont think I have one ots part in my car.

Ok I'm going to do it,

Step 1: sell old parts

Coulda had a V8.

Go FE3. I have a genuine mazda block/head in my mx6 that I rebuilt with stock KIA parts. As of now its been sub 300hp and holding up pretty well. For a 400hp goal the only thing I can recommend is to upgrade the pistons to forged units and maintain the stock compression ratio.

I do feel very tempted to put the FE3 in my miata, but I dont want to deal with the custom stuff, just yet.

m2cupcar, where is your build thread? I remember seeing it maybe a month ago.. now im going crazy trying to find it. Linkie pls!

I'm going to keep all the internals stock, if Marc made 460whp on a stock bp bottom end I can surely do it on a Fe. His motor wasn't a gernade either.

Ya Rob you should hook me up with some info and pics on your swap. How do you like the rx7 trans? I could sell my 6spd and pick one of those up super cheap as they can hold 400hp pretty well

Cspence- you'd be surprised how big the aftermarket is for the FE3. It's just not in the rwd arena. For example I picked up set of Fidanza adjustable cam gears for $185 on a group buy over on mx6.com. There's several piston manufacturers that make forgies for it and the will be a forged rod group-buy coming up on mx6.com. And as neo mentioned- you can go to 2.2 with an F2T crank. I picked one up for $25 in perfect condition. This engine was the high end four cylinder big block "main stay" for Mazda much like the BP was. Just everywhere else - we got the KL v6 instead.

I started a build thread, throwing it up first over on cr.net and never got finished. I was going to bring it over here and our local site but got busy with work. There's links there to the oil pan and motor mount adapter plate drawings with some measurements. Not exact but safe guidelines. You'll get 4.5 qts with the modified kia sportage pan and will go up from there with a cooler and lines.

I never got the tII trans in. Got sidetracked with my intake manifold and then the tree fell. The tII was the easy choice for me- a buddy gave me two of the transmissions - and they are cheap even from salvage yards. But in theory you'll only need one. :D

how much grinding would it take to make the jerry rigged bp intake welded to the mounts not look so jerry rigged... if its even possible? cough smog cough

True, I guess I wasn't looking at things that way and I forget that there is a cult following for every car/motor out there (I don't make it off the miata boards too often:giggle:)....Once I see more videos of your car in action it'll probably seal the deal for me ;)

frostyllama wtf are you asking? :confused:

I bet dc2696 will have vids up in two weeks, maybe three. :D

If only the block was Al.......wakes up from dreaming...

Quit living in the present and come back to the iron age. ;)

I remember picking up the bare block by myself years ago and straight struggling. It is a heavy beast.

5 QTS of oil would be nice if the car does end p seeing a lot of track time. Sweet.

I think what he was asking about the intake was i its possible to make a homebrew (as with the Honda intake adapted over to a BP flange) intake look OEM....ish.

You can make anything look pretty OEM. Just make it look dirty and run semi-pointless wiring/vac lines in the area.

Yes- 50-60lbs heavier than the BP. Both engines fully dressed- that's with the stock cast exhaust mani on the FE and the tubular on the BP, which probably adds 10+ lbs. to the FE.

Spare- I've got an OE mercedes oil cooler that holds a full qt. I plan on installing and it's not "that" big. Rx7 cooler is larger- and then there's the nascar style short and wide units that hold even more (used on eBay). So adding oil capacity is fairly simple.

Yes on the intake- but it requires the same process of sizing the plenum and finding similar port alignment/spacing/shape. I've got an aftermarket evo manifold that I was in the process of retrofitting for my FE to replace the B6/Kia hybrid I'm running.

Thanks for the info M2Cup, thats an awesome build. I need to get a damn job/car/life. I want to do an FE build so bad right now. I have half the stuff I need to go turbo sitting in my living room right now.

Aluminum is for cans, Not blocks! Lol

is it possible to make an intake that looks like it's meant to be there, so no one asks any questions semi annually.

Like this?
http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t...t/engine02.jpg

I'll bet if you just painted or otherwise marked the intake with something like MAZDA DOHC 16V EFI it would never even raise an eyebrow. Grind down the welds a bit and dirty it up before hand if its a real concern. Those inspectors dont have the time to really familiarize with an engine bay on a 20 year old car.

Yes like that, my god it's sexy. I need it.

i vote for the fe3. you should also look into a 4g63 though. it would require the same work needed for the fe3, and people are starting to swap those into more and more rwd platforms.

plus, you'd easily hit the 400hp mark with a 4g. with companies like ams, the4g63shop, jestr, machv theres a lotta performance parts.

A fire breathing N/A FE3 on nitrous. HHHHMMMMMMM!

go fe3 or go home

I'm debating transmission options atm, until I get an FE and have a look at the bolt spacing vs the 6spd I won't know if I'll make an adapter to run a 6 spd or a turbo 2 trans.

I'm also looking at doing a complete tubular front subframe to give me some options for mounting that big bastard in there.