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Old 04-13-2016, 10:42 PM   #21
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I bet if I added up all these cheapskate builds and how much money and time was wasted that never gets tallied up, they'd be right up there with the rest of them.

It's so frustrating to see "oh bro, allz you gotta do is" or "oh man, it only costs $3.50 to make 500hp"
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Old 04-13-2016, 10:43 PM   #22
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No ****. Not claiming that. But LS swap is a different level.
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Old 04-13-2016, 10:44 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aidandj View Post
Well would you look at that. TSE built engine is now 3100.

Come on Vlad. You know a LS swap isn't even close to a turbo build in price.
And you know that 99.99% of all the builds on here have ended up costing drastically more than planned, and you also know that your comments about how simple and cheap it is are really counter-productive.

I'm just sayin. Armchair experts
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Old 04-13-2016, 10:44 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by aidandj View Post
No ****. Not claiming that. But LS swap is a different level.
correct.

both are expensive. the latter is significantly more so
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Old 04-13-2016, 10:45 PM   #25
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maybe I'm just getting old and you young bucks have a whole new approach to this stuff that takes a weekend and costs 2 grand

so far that hasnt been the case doe
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Old 04-13-2016, 11:24 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by shuiend View Post
I honestly would not expect anything to be on the market within the next year.
I'm not saying that I'll have one out this year, but I do have plans to make 400whp in the next ~6 weeks, and necessity is the mother of invention.
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Old 04-14-2016, 12:41 AM   #27
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Six spd well easily handle 300 whp.
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Old 04-14-2016, 12:47 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aidandj View Post
Built engine from TSE: 2600+shipping.
6 speed: 600+shipping.

3200+shipping and other odds and ends. <$4k still

You're a little off with 9k.
And he forgot the $1500 junk yard 150k mile t56.

On the mzr swap, I'm thinking once the bugs are sorted out it'll end up being around 5k excluding the cost of anything you would have to do to take a stock car and turbo it normally.

And you dont have to tell me about nickle and dime costing. I'm pretty sure there $500 worth of AN parts in a box under my toolbench that were purchased on figuring out my nearly impossible oil drain.
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Old 04-14-2016, 01:04 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by Leafy View Post
On the mzr swap, I'm thinking once the bugs are sorted out it'll end up being around 5k excluding the cost of anything you would have to do to take a stock car and turbo it normally.
Plus how many hours of labor?
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Old 04-14-2016, 01:09 AM   #30
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Plus how many hours of labor?
Right now its looking like about the same wiring as a 1.6 to vvt swap, a few hours to install the tranny and diff mount and make sure you do it right, slight bit of re-plumbing the fuel lines in the engine bay, the half a day it takes to reroute the brake lines through the cowl, and however long it takes you to mount and route the drysump tank lines.
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Old 04-14-2016, 01:14 AM   #31
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"oh it's like 3 hours of labor"

..........*3 months later, car still on jack stands*
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Old 04-14-2016, 01:32 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aidandj View Post
Well would you look at that. TSE built engine is now 3100.

Come on Vlad. You know a LS swap isn't even close to a turbo build in price.
We were specifically talking about an MZR swap's price relation to a turbo build. TSE's price ($3100) is very reasonable, definitely a great value, but that's a shortblock. Are you going to stick a stock head on your 9:0 forged bottom end? Start adding in SUBs, valves, machine work, accessories, etc. and the price goes up. That's why I picked the SM Whammy for comparison.

From a quick bit of research it looks like the MZR's like to bend conrods at around 300hp, so it's not like I can snag a 2.5 out of a Ranger or a 2.3 out of a MS3, or a 2.0 out of a NC drop it in with a better turbo and boom 400hp. I'd have to build the MZR as well, which would cost as much or more than the BP. There is also less collective R&D on the platform. The stock NC transmissions appear to be the newest versions of what we already have so I'd need to source a T5 and Quad4Rods bellhousing just as if swapping a T5 to a BP, and would still need a shifter relocation/rear diff/ppf solution. I just don't see the price being comparable, especially considering I have a perfectly good 94 longblock as well as bearings, seals, gaskets, arp studs, etc. etc. waiting for machine work (and rods and pistons).

We all agree, a basic turbo build is the cheapest most reliable option (especially if we can just swap transmissions and keep the stock diff) My point was once you get into swapping engines the LSx is the clear winner in $$$/performance/reliability, plus every kink in the install has been ironed out. Parts are readily available from several major retailers.

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And he forgot the $1500 junk yard 150k mile t56.
I clearly said "wrecked GTO" as part of the requirements. XD And I've seen them wrecked with far fewer miles on them than 150k.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sav
I'm not saying that I'll have one out this year, but I do have plans to make 400whp in the next ~6 weeks, and necessity is the mother of invention.
That's encouraging. The front part seems like it could be handled by a qualified machine shop. Maybe if you came out with the shifter and PPF solution first, letting people roll their own bellhousing adapter (with your instructions and a weld-in adapter plate), would decrease R&D time versus a cast/fabricated bellhousing that could be added later.
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Old 04-14-2016, 03:02 AM   #33
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We were specifically talking about an MZR swap's price relation to a turbo build. TSE's price ($3100) is very reasonable, definitely a great value, but that's a shortblock. Are you going to stick a stock head on your 9:0 forged bottom end?
...yes? I made 351whp through a stock VVT head with stock valve springs. Soviet might have valve springs, but stock lifters, and he's north of 450whp on a stock BP4W port/cam. IIRC he didn't even give that head a valve job before installing it. The motor going into my development car is the lowest-spec shortblock we will sell, and it's mated to a stock VVT head with nothing more than a set of valve springs for overrev protection. Most of the motors I sell have nothing more than valve springs in the head. Realistically, you can get a built BP equipped with all the parts necessary to swallow 400+whp worth of boost shipped to your door for under $5k. If you can do the head swap and timing gear yourself, take $1500 off that number.
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Old 04-14-2016, 04:36 AM   #34
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Well, I know you can. And that the BP performs quite well in such a configuration. But it's already at the machine shop to have the mating surface cleaned up, so a valve job valves, guides, springs, SUBs, a little porting and deshrouding, all might as well do while you're in there. Every little bit adds up. Stuff I figured that was part of the price of a hypothetical "full engine build," that Leafy referenced for his MZR swap costs. He didn't say "built shortblock."

I'm planning on following Soviets build pretty closely, but wanting to do a little porting on the head and maybe some larger valves. Nothing CNC crazy, I'd only go that route if/when I go VVT.
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Old 04-14-2016, 07:32 AM   #35
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Where are you seeing 300hp? The NC builders recommend keeping nc2 motors below 300ftlbs for total reliability and 2.5s under 350 ftlbs. Though you can go higher you run into limited life issues like pushing a 6 speed. Of course it's temping to do that when there's 20 2.5s writing 20 miles of you for 450.
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Old 04-14-2016, 08:05 AM   #36
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Well, since the MZR is a family of engines, I did a quick look at the 2.3 MS3 stuff, since I know there'd be turbos and broken bits. Lots of posts about bent rods on mazdaspeedforums, almost all of the engines I glanced at are just over 300hp, but also over 300tq on second inspection. I don't proclaim to know what the aftermarket builders of these engines recommend. The 2.5's go for around $1000 here with life left in them. You can pick up 200k mile specimens for $500.

Now that I'm reading all of this, the MZR 2.2 Diesel sounds amazing. Did that ever make it over the pond? 300tq and 180hp at 50mpgs.... Wonder what kind of gears it'd take to make that thing usable with an 1800rpm wide power band.

Edit: **** you Volkswagen. Cheating on your diesel cars and making the Skyactiv-D be on permanent hiatus.

Last edited by TheScaryOne; 04-14-2016 at 08:20 AM.
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Old 04-14-2016, 05:46 PM   #37
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LS Swap is way more then a turbo build. $1500-2k for a T56, a standalone harness or substantial work to a factory one, the mounts/crossmember/rearend/driveshaft/axles/$800oilpan/front engine drive pulleys/bigradiator/fans/etc add up. It gets more expensive if you use prefabbed parts (V8R/Boss Frog, etc)


The engine itself is by far the cheapest piece of the puzzle. The cost is deceiving.
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Old 04-14-2016, 06:30 PM   #38
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I have a MSM rear end I might be persuaded to sell...
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Old 04-14-2016, 07:11 PM   #39
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I have an MSM rear end with axles (no driveshaft) I would swap strait across for a torsen with axles and driveshaft...
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Old 04-14-2016, 09:07 PM   #40
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If only either of you lived anywhere near this side of the country. Going to be getting a Supermiata serviceable driveshaft, so giving up the stocker from the 99 would be no big deal.
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