Should I move to a turbo NC?
12-06-2013, 10:33 AM
#41
Make sure that you actually go out and drive an S2000 for a long distance before getting too attached to the idea. It's a very well-built and well-mannered car, rigid as a girder, great suspension, excellent transmission, tight and responsive steering...
...and a hideously uncomfortable place for humans larger than a Japanese schoolgirl to spend any length of time sitting in. The NA's interior feels like a Lincoln Town Car as compared to an S2k. There's a reason that they didn't sell well.
...and a hideously uncomfortable place for humans larger than a Japanese schoolgirl to spend any length of time sitting in. The NA's interior feels like a Lincoln Town Car as compared to an S2k. There's a reason that they didn't sell well.
I was in the market for an s2k until I got in and out of one a few times. I threw my wallet in the back of the car and alas, there was no more room for anything else. My father has an 02 however he is 5'7" 140lbs. Had a friend tell me a while ago to get a miata and fought it until a work buddy let me inside of his. I am still surprised how roomy a miata is for it's size. Even more surprised how roomy the trunk is. I'm 6'0" and 205lbs and I even have to move my seat up a little to fit well. The only complaint I've had is I wish I had tilt steer, but only because i'm too lazy to lower my seat or cut foam.
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12-06-2013, 11:22 AM
#43
I never had any problems with size/comfort in my S2000 (FWIW I'm 5'10" 160lb) and gas mileage was very reasonable. Mine was supercharged 325hp, 200tq and it would get 21 around town and 28 on the highway, my turbo miatas have gotten 23/28 with similar driving.
I did destroy a lot of drivetrain parts though; blew up 2 rearends and broke 2 driver's side axles in a short time. I've easily logged 3x the mileage in similarly powered miatas without breaking anything. A lot of that was drag/launch related damage so it might not be as severe in a trackcar, but something to be aware of at least.
I did destroy a lot of drivetrain parts though; blew up 2 rearends and broke 2 driver's side axles in a short time. I've easily logged 3x the mileage in similarly powered miatas without breaking anything. A lot of that was drag/launch related damage so it might not be as severe in a trackcar, but something to be aware of at least.
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12-06-2013, 11:32 AM
#44
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It's an extremely well-refined car, as is typical of the brand. It's just got a very oddly designed interior, with lots of bumps and protrusions, and controls located in nonintuitive places. Think Lotus Elise.
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12-06-2013, 06:51 PM
#45
I was searching for an s2k when I bought my NC. The ap2 s2000 really is a fabulous car. The big difference I noticed about the interior is that the door comes up much higher on my shoulder and it makes it feel like you're sitting down in a bathtub or something. It's strange, like the car engulfs you. It doesn't bother me too much, as I still love that car. The 2 big factors that won me over for the NC was the price first of all. There was a $5k difference between my NC and an AP2. I didn't even consider the AP1 for many reasons. The second was the low range torque. While the miata has less power, the low end torque really is fabulous. It is a drastic improvement in drive ability and around town driving over the NA/NB. Once you get that f22 motor spun up, it's a blast, but driving at 5k rpm just around town is annoying. The interior roominess was a distant 3rd deciding factor.
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12-06-2013, 08:08 PM
#46
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Ahh, the AP2 S2k. 320whp turbo is conservative judging by hingston's setup.
It's such a wonderful car. But know why it's more refined and rigid than a Miata?
2835 pounds.
Ouch.
That's about 250 more than an NC PRHT.
Edit: says the guy who drives a 3700 lb "performance" car
It's such a wonderful car. But know why it's more refined and rigid than a Miata?
2835 pounds.
Ouch.
That's about 250 more than an NC PRHT.
Edit: says the guy who drives a 3700 lb "performance" car
Last edited by turbofan; 12-06-2013 at 08:08 PM. Reason: Funny guy
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12-06-2013, 09:18 PM
#47
Not sure about the NC chassis, but I am doubtful that Mazda did something comparable. I do have to say the RX-8 has some amazing torsional rigidity numbers (much better than the RX7 if I remember correctly), which you can find freely on google. If mazda was able to carry that over to the NC, then its got a fighting chance.
With all that said, I think an RX8 is a better choice for a track **** (not sure if that is what you were going for). Rotaries respond well to mods it seems, especially with porting and if you give up on that, they will take a v8 easy. Or maybe go all in for a 3-rotor.
EDIT:
I looked some of these numbers up, they are probably speculative. Also torsional rigidity is not the only factor in chassis stiffness. Bending rigidity is also important among other things...Most people don't post sources on the forum for this but here is a few:
RX-8: 30,000 Nm/Degree
NC: 8,800 Nm/Degree
S2000: 7100 Nm/Degree or 20,000 Nm/Degree (20k seems way too high) (Link1 has both, link2 has 7100)
NA/NB: 6000 Nm/Degree
Lastly here is a discussion about chassis rigidity between NC and s2000 on an s2000 forum.
Last edited by Seefo; 12-06-2013 at 09:35 PM.
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12-06-2013, 09:48 PM
#50
The only NC I've ever driven was one of the original pre-production mules back in '05 or thereabouts, so I can't really make a comparison, however the chassis of the second-gen S2k is unbelievably good. You get none of the squeaking / rattling noises from body flex which define the NA and NB. The top is also excellent, and doesn't cause much in the way of wind noise when up.
It's an extremely well-refined car, as is typical of the brand. It's just got a very oddly designed interior, with lots of bumps and protrusions, and controls located in nonintuitive places. Think Lotus Elise.
It's an extremely well-refined car, as is typical of the brand. It's just got a very oddly designed interior, with lots of bumps and protrusions, and controls located in nonintuitive places. Think Lotus Elise.
Lol - I have a Lotus Elise, and I *still* have to consciously think about the location of the door locking button (front edge of the shifter cover, facing your feet) every time I drive it.. On the plus side, it's about the most minimal modern sports car you can get, mine especially so being an '05 "first year" car before they went to throttle by wire and traction control and all that newfangled gobbledy gook. There really aren't very many "controls" to contend with, and they don't seem so oddly placed to me. Two ***** and a push button for the heat, two push buttons for the lights, a stem for turn signals and a stem for wipers, and the start button. ****, the radio has more buttons than the rest of the car.
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12-06-2013, 09:59 PM
#51
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EDIT:
I looked some of these numbers up, they are probably speculative. Also torsional rigidity is not the only factor in chassis stiffness. Bending rigidity is also important among other things...Most people don't post sources on the forum for this but here is a few:
RX-8: 30,000 Nm/Degree
NC: 8,800 Nm/Degree
S2000: 7100 Nm/Degree or 20,000 Nm/Degree (20k seems way too high) (Link1 has both, link2 has 7100)
NA/NB: 6000 Nm/Degree
I looked some of these numbers up, they are probably speculative. Also torsional rigidity is not the only factor in chassis stiffness. Bending rigidity is also important among other things...Most people don't post sources on the forum for this but here is a few:
RX-8: 30,000 Nm/Degree
NC: 8,800 Nm/Degree
S2000: 7100 Nm/Degree or 20,000 Nm/Degree (20k seems way too high) (Link1 has both, link2 has 7100)
NA/NB: 6000 Nm/Degree
At Honda, the chassis is designed by an engineer and then handed to the stylist for polishing. At Mazda, the chassis is designed by the stylist, and then an engineer tries to figure out where to add bracing in order to keep it from collapsing under its own weight.
I love the NA/NB, but they practically define the concept of chassis flex. There are no companies selling the equivalent of Frog Arms for the S2k, and there's a reason for this.
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12-06-2013, 10:13 PM
#52
I tend to take numbers found on the internet with a grain of salt, so I'll just say this: There is absolutely no way in hell that a second-gen S2k chassis is only 17% more rigid than that of an NA. I would accept double without flinching, and even triple after I'd done a little back-of-napkin figurin'. But those numbers (6k vs. 7.1k) just smell like yesterday's catch.
At Honda, the chassis is designed by an engineer and then handed to the stylist for polishing. At Mazda, the chassis is designed by the stylist, and then an engineer tries to figure out where to add bracing in order to keep it from collapsing under its own weight.
I love the NA/NB, but they practically define the concept of chassis flex. There are no companies selling the equivalent of Frog Arms for the S2k, and there's a reason for this.
At Honda, the chassis is designed by an engineer and then handed to the stylist for polishing. At Mazda, the chassis is designed by the stylist, and then an engineer tries to figure out where to add bracing in order to keep it from collapsing under its own weight.
I love the NA/NB, but they practically define the concept of chassis flex. There are no companies selling the equivalent of Frog Arms for the S2k, and there's a reason for this.
1) 7000 Nm/Degree seems to be a number a GM engineer came up with in one of the forums. It also is the most commonly accepted number that I have found in the s2k forums.
2) 20,000 Nm/Degree is the other possible number, but no other convertible in the world comes close to that. An Elise is 10,000+ Nm/Degree and its even newer and stiffer feeling than an S2K.
3) I am in no way saying these numbers are correct. I tend to agree with you, my s2k experience says its much stiffer than an NA/NB. I do have to say that its purely a "butt dyno" measurement and we all know how inaccurate that is.
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12-06-2013, 10:47 PM
#54
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Just think about all the little squeaks and rattles than a stock NA emits when driven over a bump at speed, especially if the hardtop is attached at the time.
The S2K does not make those sounds. I don't mean that they are less intense, they're just not there at all. The chassis isn't stamped and welded together, it's CNC-machined out of a solid block of granite.
To be certain, you pay the price for this in interior comfort. Like the Elise, the S2k door sills are a mile wide and the tunnel was designed using the same technology as that employed in the central span of the Sydney Harbour Bridge. But to compare the rigidity of the S2k to the NA, you can't even use the same units of measure.
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12-07-2013, 08:00 AM
#56
It's more than a butt-dyno, it's an ear-dyno.
Just think about all the little squeaks and rattles than a stock NA emits when driven over a bump at speed, especially if the hardtop is attached at the time.
The S2K does not make those sounds. I don't mean that they are less intense, they're just not there at all. The chassis isn't stamped and welded together, it's CNC-machined out of a solid block of granite.
To be certain, you pay the price for this in interior comfort. Like the Elise, the S2k door sills are a mile wide and the tunnel was designed using the same technology as that employed in the central span of the Sydney Harbour Bridge. But to compare the rigidity of the S2k to the NA, you can't even use the same units of measure.
Just think about all the little squeaks and rattles than a stock NA emits when driven over a bump at speed, especially if the hardtop is attached at the time.
The S2K does not make those sounds. I don't mean that they are less intense, they're just not there at all. The chassis isn't stamped and welded together, it's CNC-machined out of a solid block of granite.
To be certain, you pay the price for this in interior comfort. Like the Elise, the S2k door sills are a mile wide and the tunnel was designed using the same technology as that employed in the central span of the Sydney Harbour Bridge. But to compare the rigidity of the S2k to the NA, you can't even use the same units of measure.
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12-07-2013, 10:44 AM
#57
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My '92 had around 45,000 miles when I bought it in '04, and around 70k when I sold it in '11. I believe that Dave's second-gen S2k had about the same mileage during the time that I drove it, possibly just a tad more (he was commuting to Burbank and back for a while.)
So, no, I think I'm making a pretty fair comparison.
And before you say "well, I'm sure that your '92 was compromised by rust," we don't even know what rust is in SoCal. People use unrestored cars of 1960s vintage with original paint down there as their daily-drivers.
So, no, I think I'm making a pretty fair comparison.
And before you say "well, I'm sure that your '92 was compromised by rust," we don't even know what rust is in SoCal. People use unrestored cars of 1960s vintage with original paint down there as their daily-drivers.
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12-07-2013, 01:14 PM
#58
My '92 had around 45,000 miles when I bought it in '04, and around 70k when I sold it in '11. I believe that Dave's second-gen S2k had about the same mileage during the time that I drove it, possibly just a tad more (he was commuting to Burbank and back for a while.)
So, no, I think I'm making a pretty fair comparison.
And before you say "well, I'm sure that your '92 was compromised by rust," we don't even know what rust is in SoCal. People use unrestored cars of 1960s vintage with original paint down there as their daily-drivers.
So, no, I think I'm making a pretty fair comparison.
And before you say "well, I'm sure that your '92 was compromised by rust," we don't even know what rust is in SoCal. People use unrestored cars of 1960s vintage with original paint down there as their daily-drivers.
I have never driven a Miata with a hardtop, nor have I spent more than 10 minutes in a S2K. Perhaps I spent way too much time in an MGB to be qualified to remark on what is adequate stiffness.
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12-07-2013, 02:29 PM
#59
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Maybe I have owned too many GM products, but I'm always shocked at how little my 132k NB rattles or squeaks. For a while the street wheels had no wheel weights and the thing would shimmy like crazy at 65mph, but nothing would rattle. I've never had a hardtop though.
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12-07-2013, 07:06 PM
#60
It's more than a butt-dyno, it's an ear-dyno.
Just think about all the little squeaks and rattles than a stock NA emits when driven over a bump at speed, especially if the hardtop is attached at the time.
The S2K does not make those sounds. I don't mean that they are less intense, they're just not there at all. The chassis isn't stamped and welded together, it's CNC-machined out of a solid block of granite.
To be certain, you pay the price for this in interior comfort. Like the Elise, the S2k door sills are a mile wide and the tunnel was designed using the same technology as that employed in the central span of the Sydney Harbour Bridge. But to compare the rigidity of the S2k to the NA, you can't even use the same units of measure.
Just think about all the little squeaks and rattles than a stock NA emits when driven over a bump at speed, especially if the hardtop is attached at the time.
The S2K does not make those sounds. I don't mean that they are less intense, they're just not there at all. The chassis isn't stamped and welded together, it's CNC-machined out of a solid block of granite.
To be certain, you pay the price for this in interior comfort. Like the Elise, the S2k door sills are a mile wide and the tunnel was designed using the same technology as that employed in the central span of the Sydney Harbour Bridge. But to compare the rigidity of the S2k to the NA, you can't even use the same units of measure.
I can't speak to numbers, but the s2k chassis is definitely light years better than the NA/NB. I don't really know if its better than NC. It seems to me neither Mazda nor Honda have released any numbers explicitly stating their measurements.
The only numbers released by mazda was a % improvement over the NA/NB chassis and apparently Mazda at one point said the NA/NB was a specific number (listed above). I did not find a source for the 6000 Nm number listed for the NA/NB.
What I do believe is that the s2k is not magical. I would not place the s2k any higher than an Elise in chassis rigidity. I do believe there is a significant margin for error here. Numbers are passed from one forum to another, with the original source missing or no longer on the web. Also, many of these numbers are measured differently from one manufacturer to another. Its easy for an interwebz copy to not carry the units. Lastly, it seems the 7.1k Nm s2k number is a CLAIM made by a GM engineer in reference to the solstice (see Link1 which is the most technical discussion on s2k stiffness). the 22k number still has no source (its claimed to be originally found on japanese and korean sites).
I think its plausible (at least to me, based on no actual number stating that and no previous ownership of either car) to say that the s2k chassis is probably no stiffer than an Elise (~10k Nm/Degree)...
Anyways, this topic has been hashed out pretty good. Jason can make his own decision on the stiffness he wants/needs. We should hash out another topic!
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