Sintered steel oil pump gears
10-30-2007, 10:01 AM
#63
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FYI - this is what the powerlist had to offer about oil pump failures (in 2005) ...
>
Out of the 469 PowerList members (and I would presume the highest per capita number of built motors in all of Miatadom) only 4 built motors have gone south. And all four were oil pump failures. And all four were using the OEM oil pump. And all four were far exceeding OEM design redline of 7,200rpms.
So, morale of the story may simply be: Don't over rev. the BP.
I ask the question originally to gauge the collective wisdom on how much boost a built motor can safely see. It sounds like RPMs (and oil pumps) should be more of a concern. Does anyone know of BP over-boost failure?
Jim in Tucson
#1
I destroyed 3 built engines. In all cases the Oil Pump shattered and smoked the
crank and bearings.. Never lost one due to boost, or tuning (I tune my own
engines and take a great deal of time) My highest hp was 489hp and that was
with Turbo and Nitrous on that motor. I hope to crack 500hp with my newest
engine revision. 9000rpm? I found that 8100rpm was the breaking point..
7800-8000 and I never broke one..
Marc
#2
my highest powered NA was 170 RWHP with a 8500 redline failed due to a
failed oil pump.
Greg
>
Out of the 469 PowerList members (and I would presume the highest per capita number of built motors in all of Miatadom) only 4 built motors have gone south. And all four were oil pump failures. And all four were using the OEM oil pump. And all four were far exceeding OEM design redline of 7,200rpms.
So, morale of the story may simply be: Don't over rev. the BP.
I ask the question originally to gauge the collective wisdom on how much boost a built motor can safely see. It sounds like RPMs (and oil pumps) should be more of a concern. Does anyone know of BP over-boost failure?
Jim in Tucson
#1
I destroyed 3 built engines. In all cases the Oil Pump shattered and smoked the
crank and bearings.. Never lost one due to boost, or tuning (I tune my own
engines and take a great deal of time) My highest hp was 489hp and that was
with Turbo and Nitrous on that motor. I hope to crack 500hp with my newest
engine revision. 9000rpm? I found that 8100rpm was the breaking point..
7800-8000 and I never broke one..
Marc
#2
my highest powered NA was 170 RWHP with a 8500 redline failed due to a
failed oil pump.
Greg
Now we have to figure out what the pump gears are made of, and then what we can do to make them more durable (without making them brittle). Otherwise, Bill W's SS gears are a must have it sounds like.
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10-30-2007, 10:16 AM
#65
Guys I doubt you will be able to strengthen the stock gears a lot. Crank flex is increasing exponentialy as the revs increase, so say a 15-20% increase in gear strength isn't buying you a lot. The aftermarket gears are closer to 300% tougher. They're tough enough that something else would break before the gears themselves failed. I don't think you'll see more than a 20 % increase in strength on powder mealurgy parts that were not alloyed for stength. Had the gears been alloyed properly and then heat treated, cryod, etc, then their strength could approach maybe 1/2 the strengh of a cast unit.
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10-30-2007, 10:19 AM
#66
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FYI - this is what the powerlist had to offer about oil pump failures (in 2005) ...
>
Out of the 469 PowerList members (and I would presume the highest per capita number of built motors in all of Miatadom) only 4 built motors have gone south. And all four were oil pump failures. And all four were using the OEM oil pump. And all four were far exceeding OEM design redline of 7,200rpms.
So, morale of the story may simply be: Don't over rev. the BP.
I ask the question originally to gauge the collective wisdom on how much boost a built motor can safely see. It sounds like RPMs (and oil pumps) should be more of a concern. Does anyone know of BP over-boost failure?
Jim in Tucson
#1
I destroyed 3 built engines. In all cases the Oil Pump shattered and smoked the
crank and bearings.. Never lost one due to boost, or tuning (I tune my own
engines and take a great deal of time) My highest hp was 489hp and that was
with Turbo and Nitrous on that motor. I hope to crack 500hp with my newest
engine revision. 9000rpm? I found that 8100rpm was the breaking point..
7800-8000 and I never broke one..
Marc
#2
my highest powered NA was 170 RWHP with a 8500 redline failed due to a
failed oil pump.
Greg
>
Out of the 469 PowerList members (and I would presume the highest per capita number of built motors in all of Miatadom) only 4 built motors have gone south. And all four were oil pump failures. And all four were using the OEM oil pump. And all four were far exceeding OEM design redline of 7,200rpms.
So, morale of the story may simply be: Don't over rev. the BP.
I ask the question originally to gauge the collective wisdom on how much boost a built motor can safely see. It sounds like RPMs (and oil pumps) should be more of a concern. Does anyone know of BP over-boost failure?
Jim in Tucson
#1
I destroyed 3 built engines. In all cases the Oil Pump shattered and smoked the
crank and bearings.. Never lost one due to boost, or tuning (I tune my own
engines and take a great deal of time) My highest hp was 489hp and that was
with Turbo and Nitrous on that motor. I hope to crack 500hp with my newest
engine revision. 9000rpm? I found that 8100rpm was the breaking point..
7800-8000 and I never broke one..
Marc
#2
my highest powered NA was 170 RWHP with a 8500 redline failed due to a
failed oil pump.
Greg
Somehow your claim (or quote) of only 4 motors failing is a little.... short.
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10-30-2007, 10:32 AM
#68
Guys I doubt you will be able to strengthen the stock gears a lot. Crank flex is increasing exponentialy as the revs increase, so say a 15-20% increase in gear strength isn't buying you a lot. The aftermarket gears are closer to 300% tougher. They're tough enough that something else would break before the gears themselves failed. I don't think you'll see more than a 20 % increase in strength on powder mealurgy parts that were not alloyed for stength. Had the gears been alloyed properly and then heat treated, cryod, etc, then their strength could approach maybe 1/2 the strengh of a cast unit.
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10-30-2007, 10:41 AM
#69
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Perhaps I should've been more clear, as I was trying to put it nicely:
As you're aware, time is money, in most folks' eyes, and while you are busy having material and destructive tests done on the stock gears, you're pouring in hours worth of time, labor and resources into the search for something that already exists: a stronger oil pump gear.
That said, I'm sure we all agree that this forum is about the DIY'ers, and so, as much of a douche as your are, Loki, I applaud you for volunteering your time and resources to said cause.
So, I guess the final questions I have are: if you're going through the trouble of R&R'ing your oil pump/gears, how much of a price-cut from the $500 machined gears makes it worth it in your eyes to replace with a cryo'd/slightly altered stock gear? Would not that money be better spent chasing down a solution for eliminating crank-flex?
Like others here, I'm just asking questions and following along.
As you're aware, time is money, in most folks' eyes, and while you are busy having material and destructive tests done on the stock gears, you're pouring in hours worth of time, labor and resources into the search for something that already exists: a stronger oil pump gear.
That said, I'm sure we all agree that this forum is about the DIY'ers, and so, as much of a douche as your are, Loki, I applaud you for volunteering your time and resources to said cause.
So, I guess the final questions I have are: if you're going through the trouble of R&R'ing your oil pump/gears, how much of a price-cut from the $500 machined gears makes it worth it in your eyes to replace with a cryo'd/slightly altered stock gear? Would not that money be better spent chasing down a solution for eliminating crank-flex?
Like others here, I'm just asking questions and following along.
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10-30-2007, 10:47 AM
#70
THe labor for this testing is close to an hour or 2 at the most depending how many samples we need to take. So its not that hard, the cry treating you could literally do at home for 50 bucks.
ITs the same thing with turbo kits, the hours people spent, **** if braineack when to work at a 10$/hr job instead of the hours he poured into his car he could have had an FMII kit with a Link.
But if you read the thread i said in the beginning that buying is gear is the cheapest and easiest way to get to that level. The question is do we need that level? If not what level is the stock pump at? What can we do to increase that level and minimal cost? (hence the avoidance of machining)
I could be the biggest douche in the world, but read the ******* thread, and realize that you are brining up A) moot points and B) have already been brought up in every single thread that has ever existed on any DIY forum
ITs the same thing with turbo kits, the hours people spent, **** if braineack when to work at a 10$/hr job instead of the hours he poured into his car he could have had an FMII kit with a Link.
But if you read the thread i said in the beginning that buying is gear is the cheapest and easiest way to get to that level. The question is do we need that level? If not what level is the stock pump at? What can we do to increase that level and minimal cost? (hence the avoidance of machining)
I could be the biggest douche in the world, but read the ******* thread, and realize that you are brining up A) moot points and B) have already been brought up in every single thread that has ever existed on any DIY forum
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10-30-2007, 10:50 AM
#71
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Brian--I agree that time=money. I won't need anything until probably Decemeber or January. So I have time to spare. That's why I brought the thread up.
The billet SS gears are probably the best solution. They are also $500 (new pump included). I think it's obvious that I don't know **** about materials science, but what if stock gears could be shotpeened and cryod for $75, and then that would be strong enough for a <350 whp motor at <8500 rpm. I think that would be good for 95% of us. The other 5% with higher goals can get the SS gears.
If all this is stupid, and there's no way to achieve a real world improvement in strenght, I'll buckle down and get Bill's gears.
Crank flex can be minimzied by using a 01+ block with MBSP.
The billet SS gears are probably the best solution. They are also $500 (new pump included). I think it's obvious that I don't know **** about materials science, but what if stock gears could be shotpeened and cryod for $75, and then that would be strong enough for a <350 whp motor at <8500 rpm. I think that would be good for 95% of us. The other 5% with higher goals can get the SS gears.
If all this is stupid, and there's no way to achieve a real world improvement in strenght, I'll buckle down and get Bill's gears.
Crank flex can be minimzied by using a 01+ block with MBSP.
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10-30-2007, 10:57 AM
#72
No this isnt stupid, I think its a good exercise that will A) not cost anyone alot of money and B) give alot of use a solution that doesnt rape us.
Heres My idea
A) test the old gear
B) Get an idea of its composition and strength characterisitcs
C) using that same gear get it cryo treated and shotpeend and whatever else we come up with
D) test that gear to see our results.
I am willing to throw down $$ if cjerigan is willing to do the leg work for testing. Anyone else want to help out?
Stealth your contribution would be the gear
Heres My idea
A) test the old gear
B) Get an idea of its composition and strength characterisitcs
C) using that same gear get it cryo treated and shotpeend and whatever else we come up with
D) test that gear to see our results.
I am willing to throw down $$ if cjerigan is willing to do the leg work for testing. Anyone else want to help out?
Stealth your contribution would be the gear
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10-30-2007, 11:13 AM
#75
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These are small parts, so it would be cheap.
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10-30-2007, 11:24 AM
#77
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Anywho...yes, Ben, if the gears can be cryo'd for $75 to achieve even 40-50% more strength then stock, then I'm sure there'd be quite a few takers. I'll keep tuning into this thread to see what progress is made, despite Loki's best attempts to shoo me away.
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10-30-2007, 11:30 AM
#78
You are a moron, the argument of labor vs money is made on every DIY forum, its usually the biggest decision of which route to go. Stop taking **** out of context and applying it liberally to everything
But enough of your stupidity.
Ben I think we have a plan just need to get some gears.
But enough of your stupidity.
Ben I think we have a plan just need to get some gears.
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10-30-2007, 11:35 AM
#79
i would throw down some cash on it I think it is a worthy thing to have something that maybe us lower torque but still high revving peeps can do to keep our gears together. If this works the NA market would be a pretty ripe for such a mod. Think about it the Fuji racing miata could actualy make it's 170whp but at 9K rpm with cams and still be reliable. I wonder what a simple heat treated or drop forged gear would run and give us as far as stregnth as well. I am not a big fan of powdered metals for one.
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10-30-2007, 11:37 AM
#80
thinking ahead, i want any bit more piece of mind on my future built motor, so i would be interested in donating money/gears for testing...please let me know what is desired, i could tear down my old motor and get the gears out and send them for free...if a low cost solution presents itself after these test i think everyone will benefit...including me
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