For those that have driven a K swap and a turbo
 

While I love, I mean absolutely love my 2560 set up...I have been wondering . On the track, for those that have driven a K and a turbo miata, what was your take away from the experience? I am not sure about losing 75 hp and 100+tq.

What lures me to the K, is the reduced complexity. I really want to hit the track a lot next year, and I have my concerns regarding the longevity of a turbo vs a stock k24.

Another driving force, is the concern for staying out of jail. with 300 hp on tap all you have to do is breathe on the gas pedal and you are in triple digits. My state doesn't F around with speeding .

I want a turbo k series

I knew that was coming . the idea is to stay OUT of prison.

I drove a k swap. It was good, and would probably be reliable. I still like turbos more.

Good data point.

Get another car and k swap that.

Have both.

Profit.

The world needs a Miata with a supercharged K24 and a T5 transmission swap.

Ew. gross. why.

s2k transmission.

My biased opinion may not matter much, but of course I've driven both, with much more seat time in K series cars obviously.

A proper K24 setup should do what you're asking for. It's simple and lighter, and any previous issues with high temps will be gone immediately. It certainly won't be slow. As a point of reference, our K car always pulls on Miatas with turbo kits on the straights every time, with 230whp. Obviously big 300+hp turbo builds are going to be quicker.

The bonus is that if you get the itch for 300+whp again, its just an engine build away with stock sleeves, bore, stroke, and crank. A 220-230whp K swap is just scratching the surface of the platform.

To those asking about a T5 trans swap, stay tuned, we have something even better in the works right now. 2017 is going to be an awesome year for making huge power in these little cars..

Giggity.

T5, S2K, whatever. I'm thinking about a K-swap, but it would be nice to have something that can handle 350ft-lbs and not have me at 4k RPM on the highway without being a boat anchor. Glad to hear you're working on it.

Check, check, and check. More details should be posted before the end of the year.

Anyway, let's bring this thread back on track. Anyone else have experiences to share with the OP?

If you want to know what it's like to have 75 less horsepower and 100 foot pounds of torque then turn down the boost and go drive it around. Pull one of your injector harness plugs apart and go try to enjoy 75% of the power after being used to allofit.

Don't forget to take about 100lbs out of the front of the car too.

I'd go K over turbo BP for track use just for reliability and simplicity's sake.

100lbs?

Over a tubular subframe, AC/PS deleted BP?

Surprising.

Idk, David would know the difference between the K and the BP. Then subtract the turbo, all plumbing, intercooler, etc that goes along with the turbo BP. Might not be 100lbs but I'm sure it is a significant amount.

It's 369 lbs...give or take.

369 what? What is the weight different between a Kyle series and a BP longblock?

With our new aluminum oil pan, a K24 swap drops 30 lbs off the front of a BP powered car that already has A/C and P/S deleted. So weigh all the turbo parts, and subtract that number plus another 30 lbs.

How much weight does a typical turbo setup add?

What about tubular subframe.

The tubular subframe is supposed to weigh about 10 lbs less than stock, so we can reasonably assume that if your car already has one, you're going to drop about 20 lbs. instead of 30.

Note to self - hurry up and install the tubular subframe hanging from a nail in the garage.

My car was neck and neck with the kswap car on the main laguna straight at my 230 whp/8 PSI setting. Sure loved listening to it go by after the point by though. What a sound!

Ryan, really the deal is that you give up torque in the name of a new powerband and greater simplicity. Just a tradeoff. Which do you prefer?

I think ryan needs to drive his damn car. The thing is awesome. And doesnt get driven enough.

Quit doing silly things like dirt bikes and women and drive!

:D

Yup, two 230whp cars should be pretty comparable, and our possible small weight advantage was always taken away with someone in the passenger seat! My point earlier was that many cars with a bolt-on turbo setup aren't pushing quite that much power, so a stock K24 chases them down pretty easily.

Just my opinion, but I think it really comes down to how much track work you'll actually do. If a lot, then this is a good idea for sure. If not, then stick with what you already have.

...and what you actually want. Do you LIKE the feel of a turbo, or do you prefer the high-rpm scream and sound of a Honda engine?

I couldn't decide, so got both. :P

No sure what emissions rules are in your state but my decision came down to emissions. I'd love to have a k24 miata. But removing a turbo kit every 2 years was more reasonable then swapping an engine every two years.

Damn CARB.

CARB won't be a hurdle for long :)

By all means, don't feel free to share or anything ;)

Yeah, I'm just always hesitant to make things public before they are official.

I wish I knew that before I built my BP engine...

Thank you. I hate post where people are asking companies to release information, then bitch about when it doesn't come soon enough. Real engineering takes time and testing, and then more time and testing. That's why I feel the TSE turbo kit and K swap kits are two of the best options out there for powering up a Miata. They weren't released to the market until thoroughly tested

Totally agree. While it's great to have advance notice of a particular project, it often results in people complaining that "I PUT MY BUILD ON HOLD WAITING FOR THIS THING YOU WERE WORKING ON AND YOU'RE NOT DONE YET HOW DARE YOU" even though it was always just shown as a 'hey guys this is something we're working on, shooting to have it done by the end of the year' type of thing.

I think the op just wants to start another build thread and complain about things not working, then coming up with gorgeous over engineered home made solutions.

Petition to change his name to ryansmoneypits.

Apples to Apples, Kmiata uses a tubular subframe.


So my opinion may not mean much.

My experience with turbo BP was in a fully gutted tube front end race car, the engine was built to the hilt push 460whp + Nitrous. Before i parted this car out there were many things that i wanted to change about the setup.

I find the K24 swap to be much much more fun to drive, my turbo car did not have the mid range punch and throttle response of the K24. Yes once the car got into boost it was a hell of a ride. But in my opinion all around fun the K24 is better.

It is 1000% more reliable then my turbo car, Much less under hood heating. I know drifting is not road racing but for what its worth I can hot lap my car all day at a drift even ( 1.5 min run + 10-15 min in line with no air flow other than fan) and it just sits at 190-205 degrees.

I am saving to build my K24 to the 300whp region, I did the K swap to have the highest starting potential for my car, i didn't concern my self with the price so much.

Really good posts guys, It all has me thinking deeply, even more than before. Especially this one ^^^^. Drifta knows what its like to have wayy too much power on tap, and then have much less, so a good insight. I think what I am going to do is install the EFR and enjoy it for another year.

When all of this K MAdness is sorted out, then I will jump ship. Two solid turbo kits should fund the swap.

Keep going with the discussion though, its all very insightful, for me and others I'm sure.

but to be fair, your car while making tons of power was super duper laggy and gutless down low.

vs a built bp6d running e85 on a 6258 would make torque everywhere.

But then again, you can boost the K too so that puts it back up on top.

Yeah I don't think my race car is the best comparison. But the way a NA car drives is wonderful.

I was fully looking at turbo for the k24 but due to the cost and lack of drivetrain options I decided to build it NA. A K24 with 12psi is 400 whp and over 300ftlbs

kmiata doesn't want to say much but i think you should cause it will create some hype. and trust me i am hyped. I will make it my mission to build a k miata turbo the moment i hear more details on its finished process. . I think that would be a dream come true.

turbofan makes a good point which is why I'm definitely not putting my build on hold, just finishing it lol. a part of me wants to part out and start the k swap, but... who knows when it will really be done.

Oh come on, the people that get overhyped about stuff like that will already be overhyped about what he hinted at. That's just how it goes. Even when it's all worked out and awaiting mass implementation, and they announce it, there will be those that will be impatient asking for updates every week.

It's one thing to announce what you're working on, it's another to set a date, or a deadline/ETA of some sort. I see nothing wrong with the former, and lots of things that could potentially go wrong with the latter.

What happens if someone else beats you to the punch cause you waited too long? What happens if people take their build in a different direction cause they didn't think what you're working on is possible, and dismissed the idea altogether?

Even the example you posted with TSE: the kit was announced years before even loose components were ready to ship to the public, and even still there is no "kit" released. Andrew learned a lesson with that one, but ultimately it's still happening and his components are selling like hot cakes. We're all still really happy with what he's doing, and supporting his efforts to finally get the "kit" completed. Now his announcements are "we're working on/testing xxx" and when asked for an eta he simply refuses to commit to one. Which is smart, it keeps people in the know, keeps those that would be interested still interested, but no one can blame him for being "behind" because there's no ETA.

Anyway, sorry for off topic rant but I just don't agree with the whole "thank you for keeping things secret" comments. There's nothing wrong with announcing things as long as you do it correctly.

:)

I watched it when the FRS/BRZ's were introduced and companies were introducing forced induction kits. If you want to see a bunch of angry natives, read the Innovate/Sprintex supercharger thread on FT86club. People were PISSED off cause they weren't releasing details, numbers, and pricing on the kit while it was still be tested.

I can see it, and have seen it going both ways, so no argument there. I think the MT community is a bit more mature and supportive of our vendors, but maybe I'm wrong. Who knows.

Look at the Jackson Racing brotrex fiasco. Look at the....tec9 wheels or whatever it was from 949. look at the xid....I mean techna :giggle:......but seriously, I was ready to buy a set of those.

But I aint mad. Emilio wasn't happy with the production units or whatever it was, and I support his decision to not just "go with it" and lower his standard. Most people reacted the same way.

I feel like the original spirit of this thread was to compare turbo Miata engines and NA K setups for less than ~$10K.

Throw that budget (and the OE transmission) out the window and the only conclusion you're going to come to is that a 20 year younger engine design is a whole lot better. No one is debating which is the better engine, just which one is better at a certain price point. Start turboing the K and you run into the same problem as the BP - Why not just step up to a better engine to start with, namely, an LS1.

Good point. If money is not part of the equation, I suppose just about every other modern engine will be better than the bp

Thanks everyone, I appreciate the support and understanding that we are hesitant to release info prematurely.

I will say this: we know that the Miata drivetrain is the weak point for guys wanting boost. There is another drivetrain option in development right now that can handle huge power. It is at the top of the list for new product development. I will post more info once a few more things are sorted out.

Remember, a stock internal k20z1 engine is good for an easy 600+whp tuned on e85. Who am I to deny full K series potential to the Miata community? :)

I got a dollar on it being an s2k tranny. Don't they already make adapters for K engines?

Nah, S2000 transmissions are too weak for what we're planning. However I'm not going to play the transmission guessing game. Info coming soon...

Very nice.. would really love if you could give us an idea on the tranny :) LS? B series? GSR? or k tranny... I feel like it has to be one of those

Ok, I'm interested.

FWD miata ftw?

Not sure if .....

Unfortunately lol,

I get it now. ignore me.

:laugh:

In for Cayman/boxster transaxle conversion.

Someone fix the title. it should include that either turbo BP or K should can cost up to and including 10k

The K is more N/A style fun. Immediate, crisp, throttle position x rpm = torque

Turbo is faster, plain and simple. For the same power output, say 220whp on pump gas a TSE 6258 kit on an OEM long block kept under 7000rpm will last hundreds of race hours. Throttle response is still great, but not that direct connection from commanded input to torque. It's more like TPS x rpm / time = torque.

Turbo BP is a well trodden path, simple. K swap, while simple on paper, there aren't that many actually running regularly yet. David might know but I'm guessing it's less than 30 or so up and running regularly.

You want the best high revving N/A power, K24 is the ticket. You want to go real fast for a big easy button push, TSE on a BP.

TSE on a BP is a different ball of wax than any of the other possible turbo options, and as I understood it from the OP, the question here is keep the turbo kit that he already has or go K swap - with the intention to start tracking more often. Unless that turbo kit is a TSE (it is not AFAIK), the K series will offer way better reliability than the turbo setup. More miles = more smiles. My vote would be for the K in that case. Although, I'm conflicted a bit because usually my answer is along the lines "whatever you got, stop worrying about the parts and get out to the track"...

Currently installed is a 2560 with ARTECH hotside. However , I have another ARTECH hotside and an EFR 6258. I started considering the K when I was thinking about the trouble to pull the engine and build new water and oil lines. along with the needed valve springs. The mounting costs are what made me think about selling all of my BP stuff and going K.

I think that saying it HAS to be a TSE EFR is a bit overstated. TSE makes an awesome product,,l I will not dispute that. Arts stuff is also very nice and I don't think it should be discounted at all.