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Old 12-04-2013, 02:19 PM   #1
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Default Timing question.

'99 10AE

Car's running like garbage-
Timing marks on the cover show 10BTC and 5 hash marks to the right.. no designated TDC on the cover, but it's assumed the 5th mark would be TDC.

I have two engraved marks on my pulley/HB. How in the world does the left engraved mark on the pulley read TDC and the right engraved mark completely off the grid? Yes, I jumped 10/gnd with no load.

Mine looks like this running.
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Old 12-04-2013, 02:26 PM   #2
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Did the outer ring shift? Have you found true TDC with the dipstick down the no.1 plug hole? Do the marks line up then?
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Old 12-04-2013, 02:41 PM   #3
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why are you jumping 10/gnd on a NB to check timing? that's for NA's

did you recently do the belt? its way way off
unless the tensioner is loose and it jumped like crazy
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Old 12-04-2013, 03:08 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 18psi View Post
why are you jumping 10/gnd on a NB to check timing? that's for NA's

did you recently do the belt? its way way off
unless the tensioner is loose and it jumped like crazy
Whats the base timing check mode for NBs? Or do you just kind watch it move around in the 17* neighborhood at idle?
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Old 12-04-2013, 05:00 PM   #5
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Quote:
why are you jumping 10/gnd on a NB to check timing? that's for NA's
? The internet mislead me.... again.

Quote:
did you recently do the belt? its way way off
unless the tensioner is loose and it jumped like crazy
Yes, belt/WP two months ago. Pulled the upper cover and everything seems to be in order.. Belts tight.

I'm wondering if the pulley slipped.
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Old 12-04-2013, 05:21 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oscar View Post
Did the outer ring shift? Have you found true TDC with the dipstick down the no.1 plug hole? Do the marks line up then?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wastemore View Post
I'm wondering if the pulley slipped.
I would doubt it, but you can do what Oscar said to verify.

I would bet the exhaust cam is off a tooth (which would be about 10 degrees) and the cam sensor is throwing the timing off. When you check the cam gears it's tough to tell visually if they're correct, use your finger to feel if they're lined up with the "I" & "E" and that will tell you for sure.
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Old 12-04-2013, 05:48 PM   #7
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19 teeth between the gears if I remember correctly
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Old 12-04-2013, 07:25 PM   #8
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Quote:
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I would doubt it, but you can do what Oscar said to verify.

I would bet the exhaust cam is off a tooth (which would be about 10 degrees) and the cam sensor is throwing the timing off. When you check the cam gears it's tough to tell visually if they're correct, use your finger to feel if they're lined up with the "I" & "E" and that will tell you for sure.
He said '99 10AE. Cam sensor is looking at intake gear.
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Old 12-04-2013, 07:34 PM   #9
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He said '99 10AE. Cam sensor is looking at intake gear.
You're right, not sure why I was thinking it was exhaust side. That actually makes more sense as the crank pulls directly on the exhaust and any slack would likely be on the intake side.

Also, as I thought about the gear sizes, I'm changing my bet to it being off by 2 teeth on the intake side.
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Old 12-04-2013, 08:39 PM   #10
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Thanks for the responses.

I pulled the upper cover and the I/E line up perfectly, so the belt didn't slip. HB/Pulley slip?
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Old 12-04-2013, 08:56 PM   #11
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Did you check top dead center with the dipstick in cylinder 1 against the timing cover (remove spark plug in front cylinder, stick dipstick in hole, turn motor over until dipstick is as high as it goes, check to see if timing marks line up with top dead center)? The pin in the crank pulley pretty much guarantees that it does not slip without completely destroying your crank... unless you forgot to put that pin in when you put the pulley back on.
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Old 12-04-2013, 08:57 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pdexta View Post
Did you check top dead center with the dipstick in cylinder 1 against the timing cover? The pin in the crank pulley pretty much guarantees that it does not slip without completely destroying your crank... unless you forgot to put that pin in when you put the pulley back on.
The outer ring and the inner ring on the crank pulley are only bonded together with rubber, and its been known to fail.
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Old 12-04-2013, 09:54 PM   #13
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Quote:
Did you check top dead center with the dipstick in cylinder 1 against the timing cover (remove spark plug in front cylinder, stick dipstick in hole, turn motor over until dipstick is as high as it goes, check to see if timing marks line up with top dead center)? The pin in the crank pulley pretty much guarantees that it does not slip without completely destroying your crank... unless you forgot to put that pin in when you put the pulley back on.

I didn't and here's why. unless my thinking is skewed( and it may be, so correct me, please), it would be next to impossible for the belt to slip and have the cam gears (I/E) still line up to the hash marks perfectly. If the belt slips one, or both of those cam gears would be off.
I'm pretty certain the woodruff key hasn't sheered..
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Old 12-05-2013, 01:50 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wastemore View Post
I didn't and here's why. unless my thinking is skewed( and it may be, so correct me, please), it would be next to impossible for the belt to slip and have the cam gears (I/E) still line up to the hash marks perfectly. If the belt slips one, or both of those cam gears would be off.
I'm pretty certain the woodruff key hasn't sheered..
The crank could slip a tooth and the cam gears would still look aligned.

Finding TDC using the dipstick and checking the alignment of the cam gears and crank gear should tell you whats wrong.

Seems to me like it could be one of these few things (assuming timing belt marks on cam are correct)
  1. Crank pulley outer ring slipped
  2. Woodruff key sheared/mangled (I've had a similar problem)
  3. Crank slipped a tooth
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Old 12-05-2013, 02:09 PM   #15
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Bottom line is: the BP is one of the easiest engines ever to set timing on. So pull the front apart, and set it right like you sould have from the start.

To me it sounds like you're being lazy, pulled off the vc and glanced at the marks, and say its all good. If not then my bad.
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Old 12-06-2013, 07:11 AM   #16
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You have to jumper GND and TEN on (at least some) NBs.
My NB is OBDI, for example.
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Old 12-06-2013, 07:31 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 18psi View Post
why are you jumping 10/gnd on a NB to check timing? that's for NA's
It's still valid for NB's. You have to lock the ECU timing to a static amount, otherwise the ECU will be varying it to maintain idle speed/quality.

You need to jumper TEN and GND to set the idle speed correctly and verify base timing on my NBB/NB2
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Old 12-06-2013, 10:04 AM   #18
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Maybe you're right, I've always set timing with MS installed and not stock ecu.
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Old 12-06-2013, 12:09 PM   #19
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Yes, timing is wrong. Yes "TEN" (which stands for something and not the number "10") to ground. One mark should be on 10*BDC and one should be on 0*
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