What to fix on my Fuel System?
 

Current setup:

93 Octane Pump gas
Cleaned stock tank perfect
New Wix Fuel Filter
Walbro 255HP
stock wiring to it (about to fix that with a relay and new wires tomorrow, already measured voltage drop to it here)
6AN lines
Aeromotive fuel pressure regulator in the engine bay, set at 60 PSI, referenced to manifold, it's a 1:1 regulator.
6AN return line
ID 1,000cc injectors. They flow 1,175cc/min at 60 PSI

And I'm at 86% duty cycle and twice I added fuel to the map and it's doing nothing, motor actually got leaner... So I think the fuel pressure is dropping/pump is done.

GOAL: I want an overkill fuel system, I'm tired of doing this crap and then having to redo it. I went from 550cc injectors to 1,000cc and "knew" I'd never need anything bigger and here I am.

I want it to be E85 ready for 500whp with a blower, so that's like 600whp in the turbo world as this blower is sucking down triple digit HP from the crank to deliver 28 PSI Boost.

What do I need? What do I change? Where do I buy it?

I would run more pump and more pressure. DW300. <br />
<br /><br />Last I saw ID1000 had like a max of ~100psi. So crank it up.
<br />I'd like to see what the stock fuel rail max is so don't go dual feed yet :)

id1k's and dw300 aren't hitting 500-600whp.
450 and you'll already be in the 90's duty cycle at regular pressure, crank it up, and that pump will hate life and plummet up top
you'll need moar pump to hit 500 and moar injector to hit 600 on e85.


lol @ dw3000
gotta tell Bryan to fix that type-o

ID has some cool calculators. Go play with them. Run a bigger pump and crank the pressure.
<br />Not much else to it besides dual feed rail I think.

Yeah I think I need the 2,000cc injectors to do this on E85, right?

Also for a pump the DW300 looks like it flow about 40% more than the pump I have. So that's a no-go, I need more if I'm gonna go E85.

I remember a long time ago people ran dual Walbro 190s or dual Walbro 255's. Do people still do that are are there better options for 400-500 LPH pumps?

there's actually a couple, maybe more, 475lph pumps now
you'll need 1300's for 500 and probably 1600's for 600. maybe 2000's.

Whats it making now?

Just looked and Fab9 sells a Walbro 450 LPH pump for 129. Gonna google the specs and see if that will be enough.

No idea what it's making now, but it needs more fuel up top and if the knock sensor is anywhat accurate I need E85 in a major way! I think the E85/flex fuel setup will be happening very soon, like, now. ;)

Does anybody here run ID2000's? Do they idle decent? My 1,000's idle fine.

EDIT: Walbro 450LPH is a NO GO. At 90 PSI it flows ~71GPH, my current 250 flows ~52GPH for reference. The 450LPH is for NA V8s that need a lot of fuel at 43 PSI.

Remember if cranking pressure that is 100psi max differential. So the injectors see 100psi but at 30lbs of boost the fuel pump sees 130.

I don't know of any fuel pump that's gonna run at that high of pressure and last. I think the new setup needs to be 2,000 cc injectors, and a pump that can run at 43.5 PSI base pressure with a 1:1 reference, or something like that. I don't think I need 100 PSI of fuel pressure.

Gonna look into running twin walbro's, people used to do that with success. Plus I already have one and that's a cheap pump IIRC. Dunno what the fittings would cost.

If you added fuel and it's dropping, then yes, you're at the flow limit on something. Pump, lines, rail, filter -- not sure, but something is flow limiting.

Grab a pressure sensor and datalog the pressure, there's nothing like having real data. :) That's probably help distinguish between a pump flow limit and a rail flow limit too.

--Ian

It's the pump no doubt. I'll see about a pressure sensor, I have the sensor, and I bought a fitting I needed, I think I'm still short 1 fitting but maybe not.

I'm gonna rewire the pump tomorrow and I'll bet after doing that the motor runs richer at high boost than before. There's over 1 volt of pressure drop on this pump at 90PSI fuel pressure. And this pump is basically maxed out if it's getting full voltage AND working as-new.

DW300, dedicated +12v relay to a DW300, and ID1300s. The ID1000s might flow 500whp at ~75psi of base pressure, but a DW300 won't move 500whp at that pressure. You could also do a Walbro 400-E85 and run your ID1000s with more base pressure, but mounting it in the tank is a PITA.

Are ID 1300s enough with E85? Also don't forget this is supercharged, BSFC is shit, thus burns more fuel to make the same power as a turbo.

I think this motor making 500whp would have similar fuel demands as a 600whp turbo motor.

But FOR SURE I want to buy the right parts so I'm not borderline-maybe having enough fuel.

Should be. Soviet made 460whp on E85 maxing out ID1000s at 60psi of base pressure, IIRC. 1300s is ~30% more fuel flow, so 30% more power capacity Figure ~590whp, assuming the fuel pump can keep up. ID says the same thing ("ID1300s ... capable of approximately 150hp per injector on E85").

If you want 600whp of headroom on E85, I take back the DW300 suggestion - I don't think it will keep up. A Walbro 400-E85 pump might do it, but you also might need a twin-pump setup at that point. Something like a DW200 or Walbro 255 in the tank acting as a lift pump, which feeds a Bosch 044 acting as a pressure pump. That will flow whatever you need it to, but you'll be in uncharted territory with regard to overheating the fuel/pump at low speed. Some sort of controller to modulate the 044 under the car to prevent it from overheating might be necessary. I had plans to play with something like that on Theseus, but I scrapped them. My fuel system on the 02SE will use a DW300 and ID1000s or ID1300s, but I also have no plans to go past ~450whp on E85.

You don't really have an option to go larger than ID1300 if you want to maintain idle quality on gasoline, unfortunately. ID2000s are there, and ID1700s are coming to market shortly, but even ID admits those injectors are designed for cars running E85/E100 or methanol exclusively. You'll be idling ID2000s at ~12:1 on gas and driveability isn't going to be all that great.

Pretty much what he said: once you go above id1300's you're gonna have a race car idle. not the end of the world, but it won't be like stock. and once you go past 500 you're gonna need to get creative with pumps, and in pretty uncharted territory by miata's. 044's, wally 485, and id2000's are used in the evo/suby world but their definition of "street car" is different from mine lol

go do a proper VD and post up, as well as the log. I want to see at least your approx power and what your IDC's look like now, so we know where you're at with the current setup. id1000 and dw300 won't go past 450, I'm pretty certain

Here is a log from last night. I don't have a VD of a full pull yet. Guess would be 300-350whp right now as the timing is super soft. But timing/knock sensor crap if for another thread. You can see in the log I got single digit timing right now and the knock sensor is having a field day! I got a feeling the knock sensor is full of crap at high RPMs though but I'm going leaner than target at high RPMs and can't add any more fuel, thus this thread.

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1436306945

Also unrelated, but working on a/c lines and wiring for a/c fans right now, can't be tuning without ac! Going to wire the fans and rewire fuel pump at the same time.

Maybe consider the Walbro 460 pump for e85 (F90000267) and you could give the new ID1700 a go. They've got all stainless internals like the ID1300 so e85 compatibility is awesome. The ID2000 has been known to have some rust issues in high humidity climates when using e85.

With the ID1700 you can run lower fuel pressure (3bar base instead of going to 60+psi with ID1300) so that the pump will flow more with these, since fuel pump flow tanks when pressure increases. On e85, odds are you will be able to maintain a perfectly reasonable idle with them. They were specifically made so that cars running e85 would still be capable of idling at stoich.

Check out the page for the ID1700. It says "The ID1700 will deliver flawless stoichiometric idle and cruise mixtures on E85, but like the ID2000, should not be expected to do so on gasoline."

ID1700 Injectors - Injector Dynamics

I gotta have a good idle on gasoline too. This is a street car and that's pretty important to me.

From what I'm gathering, it's either 1,300cc ID injectors, or add more injectors.

I'll look into that pump, thanks for the heads up!

My guess is there is a good chance you could still have a good idle at ~850RPM if the base fuel pressure is low enough since you have a referenced fuel pressure regulator. Worst case scenario you will idle at maybe 1000RPM but the behavior will still be good.

Food for thought:

If you consider 1000rpm and 12.5-13.0afr at idle "normal", then yes the 1700's should be "normal"

Pat - don't worry about single digit timing, with that much boost it's not uncommon, besides you're still figuring out this setup, had you run more you'd likely have leaned out and broke something by now

You can always feed in more timing later. Once everything else is figured out.

PS: if the injectors are configured properly, then judging by that IDC i'd agree that pump is your problem right now

Thanks for the info and vid. They do idle in that vid, but I will need to be able to idle at 14.7 for emissions. Part of my goal for this car is for it to pass emmissions so it has to be possible to idle at stoich. All the things it's going to take to make it pass emmissions is for another thread, I'll post about that when I do it.

Yes exactly! I'm keeping it safe and working the bugs out. That pull AITs were higher than I want and it leaned out.... I know I gotta get the fuel fixed before beating on it any more. And try to lower the air temps too. But I do know it wants more timing, I gave it 1 degree last night and it got slower... Then I looked and turned out I hit the minus sign not the plus. So fixed that (so now a change of +2, but only +1 from original map) and it gained quite a bit in power. Clearly not at MBT in the single digit timing.

Injectors are configured correctly as far as I know! I went from high 70's% Duty cycle all the way to mid 80's and AFRs didn't change, actually they got worse.... Clearly injectors can't get enough fuel, so it's gotta be the pump.

According to ID they will idle at stoich on e85. What's to stop you from filling up with e85 before going to the sniffer?

I want it to pass emissions all the time, pump gas or E85. To be honest I don't know if running on E85 would affect any of the emissions equipment/monitors, I simply don't know much about E85 regarding emissions.

As an update, I rewired the pump. I haven't run it to redline yet to see if it fixed it though, but just going to 7,000 the AFRs were richer than before, so it helped at least a little bit!

Maybe run two pumps?

I've seen a few people (non miatas) run another pump by using a hose clamp to secure both the pumps together, and run a fitting on the top of the fuel pump holder deal.

Then on the fuel rail, they welded fittings on both ends, then tapped the fuel rail in the center as the new return line.

So each end had a feed to it, and center became the return line.

ID 2000s?
 

Car has twin HP walbro 255's now, that helped some at high loads my duty cycle dropped a bit. Also car is now E85 only.

I'm considering buying a set of ID 2000cc injectors for more fuel, at 22 PSI boost I'm at 88% duty cycle on the ID 1000's at 60 PSI base pressure. Is there any other injector in this size to consider? Looks like ID 2000's are stupid expensive.

ID1300s. But they are stupider expensiver.

MS3 supports staged injection. Add some 600cc gt500 injectors?

Soviet hit 450whp on id100s. Are you sure you need more injector?

you can easily run 70-80-90psi. cheapest upgrade ever, just turn the knob
even 100-120psi would likely still be ok
just make sure your lines are up to snuff

22 PSI, 88% duty cycle on E85.

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1446318422

Staged injection would be nice, not a terrible idea. But I don't know of an easy way to add 4 more injectors to the flat top intake manifold. I don't have a way to weld aluminum, or machine the injector bungs.

I have a 1:1 regulator right now, and I'm at 60 PSI base. I was thinking turn it for more fuel. Is it ok to daily a car running say, 90 PSI base fuel pressure? I tested my fuel lines for leaks by running it up to 90 PSI, man the fuel pump sounded pissed off at 90 PSI.

90psi won't make your pumps happy. Run leaner? You should be able to on e85. You should be good until like 110% DC or something. 100 isn't actually max.

Go look at Soviets dyno thread. Space age turbo soviet era car or whatever.

I think he has logs.

Nothing wrong with it. You will likely need to touch up the ve map, but if anything the id's like higher pressure supposedly it helps them atomize the mixture more efficiently

if twin wallys can't keep up with making 400whp (you're not even there yet) then there's another problem.

It's the pressure that hurts. Not the flow. Twin 255s flow enough. But flow will drop as pressure increases. There is a table somewhere.

I researched this and wouldn't run above 100psi. The injectors can lock open.

ID has all this info in their website. You either need to run leaner, more duty or bigger injectors, or staged injection.

Add max boost to base pressure. IDs are rated to like 110psi.

We make 400whp on subaru's and evo's all the time on a single wally and id1000's at base.
Now, I know his thupercharger is eating lots of power up, but:
You're telling me his car requires more fuel than TWO wally's can keep up with? What am I missing here?

Once Pat is past 400 then we can discuss further options.

His pumps are fine. But running them at 90psi is going to shorten their life.

More injector would let him run less pressure.

I'll bump the fuel pressure up as you say and see what that does. Go from there. The 255's can flow:
80 PSI: ~52 GPM
90 PSI: ~43 GPM
100 PSI: 34 GPM
110 PSI: 21 GPM
120 PSI: 12 GPM
130 PSI: Nothing

Link to pump graph:http://949racing.com/images/SuperMia...bro_255_HP.jpg

That is for 1 pump, so double that since twin pumps. Still I can't run these at 120 PSI and expect that to pump say 70 GPM, it won't happen. To get say, 80 GPM, the max pressure I can run is about 90 PSI, and that's 90 PSI total. If running 30 PSI boost for example, that puts me back at 60 PSI base....

If there is something else wrong, what could it be?

Just bump to 70 and see. Then 80. I think even 90 it will still work and give you enough headroom for now

I suggest starting with easiest/cheapest approaches first, obviously. You can always throw spensive injectors at it later.

Is your AFR at 12 accross the board? Is your timing all solid? Let's see a virtual dyno pull and where she's at power wise. If you're sub 400 then you need to figure out what's wrong because you should easily make 400 on current fueling, at least I think so. (and is the sc really eating 100hp? I ask because in that case you're likely near the limit)

I will, no harm and no reason not to.

But I need more headroom, thus why I'm asking about bigger injectors.

here's a dw300 at 60psi and id1000's at 90% on a thubawu

https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1446320505

that's uncorrected. dynojet would be 460-470

The SC is eating 100HP at this boost level, maybe a touch more. SC's are great for running 6 PSI, they suck at high boost though. Whipple doesn't publish a chart that goes as high as I'm pushing it.

AFRs are at 11.5, I've been hesitant to go to 12.0 but I think I need to. Was going to test 11.5 and 12.0 at the track last night but got rained out.

EDIT: And timing is solid, I'm runnin 19-20 degrees of advance at 18 PSI boost.

no reason not to run 12
And get that VD so we can see where you're at.

I'll do a VD whenever it quits raining. It ran 8.04 @ 87mph in the 1/8 on the 18 PSI pulley. That was showing duty cycle at 75% then. Does that sound right?

12.6 @ 107 is what the calculator shows.
that's like 250-300whp

Ok. At 18 PSI, the SC is only using about 75hp for that boost level. So does 75% duty cycle make sense in this situation? Or do you think something is wrong with the fuel system? I swear I've done everything in the fuel system.

Twin pumps, new filters
New 10 gauge wires/new relay to power both pumps. Measured voltage drop to confirm they're getting good power under load..
6 AN lines
Aeromotive regulator in engine bay
6 AN return line.
Wix fuel filter.
ID 1000's

EDIT: Datalog at 18 PSI
https://www.miataturbo.net/attachmen...ine=1446322139

The list looks solid, I don't really know what else to look for. DC just seems a little high given power level, but again the sc is eating lots of it so I guess it's close enough.

Cool, thanks for the help. Off topic, but you'll note in the datalog I posted, air temps are now fantastic. :)

It looks like 900 buys a set of ID 2000s. I'm going to look around and see if there's any other option. If i buy these, I could sell my ID 1000s to get some of the money back. Still it seems crazy 900 for 4 injectors.

I would want to know what fuel pressure was doing (i.e. buy a sensor/gauge) before buying anything else.

Good point Sav. I'll do that, I think I have a sensor that will work, I'll just need some fittings to plumb it into the fuel system and a bit of wiring.

2000's are not gonna wanna idle as nice as the 1000s

Even on E85? If so, :(

They will "work", but even on e85 the idle isn't gonna be as good, and I know you want it to remain an easy to live with street car.
I think 2000s are "gas" injectors or something like that. You can find theinfo I'm sure

I think I've said this twice. ID 1300s. Designed from the ground up by ID. All stainless internals. Should give you enough e85 to kill your trans.

That's only 30% more than what I have, I want more than that. Tired of "upgrading" and not doing it enough that I grow out of it and have to do it again.

I read they were for E85 only. Supposedly they can idle on E85, but not on gas. But I've never used them, and don't know anyone that's using them either. On the up side, being supercharged I keep the idle higher than normal, so I'll probably be ok on that front. As long as it will idle smoothly, I'm ok with it idling a bit high I do that anyways.

The do the 1700s. They are the same new design. They partnered with Bosch to make them to their own design.

ID1300 and ID1700 - True Motorsport Injectors - Injector Dynamics

Should idle much better than the 2000s.

The ID1300s will do 1900cc/min at 90psi.

You're on the right track. They start life as CNG injectors. Compressed Natural Gas. Most commonly found on buses in Europe.

ID1700's are a massive leap forward in drivability and durability for alternate fuels, as well as normal pump gas.

IMHO staged injection is the right answer. I'm sure you can hire a fabricator to add four more bungs to the EUDM manifold for less than half the cost of a set of ID2000s.

FM used to sell VICS manifolds with four injector bungs in them as a part of the 99 FM2 link piggyback kit.

--Ian