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Old 07-07-2015, 02:39 AM   #1
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Default What to fix on my Fuel System?

Current setup:

93 Octane Pump gas
Cleaned stock tank perfect
New Wix Fuel Filter
Walbro 255HP
stock wiring to it (about to fix that with a relay and new wires tomorrow, already measured voltage drop to it here)
6AN lines
Aeromotive fuel pressure regulator in the engine bay, set at 60 PSI, referenced to manifold, it's a 1:1 regulator.
6AN return line
ID 1,000cc injectors. They flow 1,175cc/min at 60 PSI

And I'm at 86% duty cycle and twice I added fuel to the map and it's doing nothing, motor actually got leaner... So I think the fuel pressure is dropping/pump is done.

GOAL: I want an overkill fuel system, I'm tired of doing this crap and then having to redo it. I went from 550cc injectors to 1,000cc and "knew" I'd never need anything bigger and here I am.

I want it to be E85 ready for 500whp with a blower, so that's like 600whp in the turbo world as this blower is sucking down triple digit HP from the crank to deliver 28 PSI Boost.

What do I need? What do I change? Where do I buy it?
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Old 07-07-2015, 02:42 AM   #2
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I would run more pump and more pressure. DW300. <br />
<br /><br />Last I saw ID1000 had like a max of ~100psi. So crank it up.
<br />I'd like to see what the stock fuel rail max is so don't go dual feed yet
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Old 07-07-2015, 02:44 AM   #3
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Old 07-07-2015, 02:46 AM   #4
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Old 07-07-2015, 02:52 AM   #5
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id1k's and dw300 aren't hitting 500-600whp.
450 and you'll already be in the 90's duty cycle at regular pressure, crank it up, and that pump will hate life and plummet up top
you'll need moar pump to hit 500 and moar injector to hit 600 on e85.


lol @ dw3000
gotta tell Bryan to fix that type-o
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Old 07-07-2015, 02:54 AM   #6
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ID has some cool calculators. Go play with them. Run a bigger pump and crank the pressure.
<br />Not much else to it besides dual feed rail I think.
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Old 07-07-2015, 02:56 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 18psi View Post
id1k's and dw300 aren't hitting 500-600whp.
450 and you'll already be in the 90's duty cycle at regular pressure, crank it up, and that pump will hate life and plummet up top
you'll need moar pump to hit 500 and moar injector to hit 600 on e85.


lol @ dw3000
gotta tell Bryan to fix that type-o
Yeah I think I need the 2,000cc injectors to do this on E85, right?

Also for a pump the DW300 looks like it flow about 40% more than the pump I have. So that's a no-go, I need more if I'm gonna go E85.

I remember a long time ago people ran dual Walbro 190s or dual Walbro 255's. Do people still do that are are there better options for 400-500 LPH pumps?
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Old 07-07-2015, 02:58 AM   #8
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there's actually a couple, maybe more, 475lph pumps now
you'll need 1300's for 500 and probably 1600's for 600. maybe 2000's.

Whats it making now?
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Old 07-07-2015, 03:03 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 18psi View Post
there's actually a couple, maybe more, 475lph pumps now
you'll need 1300's for 500 and probably 1600's for 600. maybe 2000's.

Whats it making now?
Just looked and Fab9 sells a Walbro 450 LPH pump for 129. Gonna google the specs and see if that will be enough.

No idea what it's making now, but it needs more fuel up top and if the knock sensor is anywhat accurate I need E85 in a major way! I think the E85/flex fuel setup will be happening very soon, like, now.

Does anybody here run ID2000's? Do they idle decent? My 1,000's idle fine.

EDIT: Walbro 450LPH is a NO GO. At 90 PSI it flows ~71GPH, my current 250 flows ~52GPH for reference. The 450LPH is for NA V8s that need a lot of fuel at 43 PSI.
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Old 07-07-2015, 03:15 AM   #10
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Remember if cranking pressure that is 100psi max differential. So the injectors see 100psi but at 30lbs of boost the fuel pump sees 130.
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Old 07-07-2015, 03:34 AM   #11
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I don't know of any fuel pump that's gonna run at that high of pressure and last. I think the new setup needs to be 2,000 cc injectors, and a pump that can run at 43.5 PSI base pressure with a 1:1 reference, or something like that. I don't think I need 100 PSI of fuel pressure.

Gonna look into running twin walbro's, people used to do that with success. Plus I already have one and that's a cheap pump IIRC. Dunno what the fittings would cost.
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Old 07-07-2015, 04:55 AM   #12
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If you added fuel and it's dropping, then yes, you're at the flow limit on something. Pump, lines, rail, filter -- not sure, but something is flow limiting.

Grab a pressure sensor and datalog the pressure, there's nothing like having real data. That's probably help distinguish between a pump flow limit and a rail flow limit too.

--Ian
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Old 07-07-2015, 05:05 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by codrus View Post
If you added fuel and it's dropping, then yes, you're at the flow limit on something. Pump, lines, rail, filter -- not sure, but something is flow limiting.

Grab a pressure sensor and datalog the pressure, there's nothing like having real data. That's probably help distinguish between a pump flow limit and a rail flow limit too.

--Ian
It's the pump no doubt. I'll see about a pressure sensor, I have the sensor, and I bought a fitting I needed, I think I'm still short 1 fitting but maybe not.

I'm gonna rewire the pump tomorrow and I'll bet after doing that the motor runs richer at high boost than before. There's over 1 volt of pressure drop on this pump at 90PSI fuel pressure. And this pump is basically maxed out if it's getting full voltage AND working as-new.
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Old 07-07-2015, 12:03 PM   #14
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DW300, dedicated +12v relay to a DW300, and ID1300s. The ID1000s might flow 500whp at ~75psi of base pressure, but a DW300 won't move 500whp at that pressure. You could also do a Walbro 400-E85 and run your ID1000s with more base pressure, but mounting it in the tank is a PITA.
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Old 07-07-2015, 01:53 PM   #15
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DW300, dedicated +12v relay to a DW300, and ID1300s. The ID1000s might flow 500whp at ~75psi of base pressure, but a DW300 won't move 500whp at that pressure. You could also do a Walbro 400-E85 and run your ID1000s with more base pressure, but mounting it in the tank is a PITA.
Are ID 1300s enough with E85? Also don't forget this is supercharged, BSFC is ****, thus burns more fuel to make the same power as a turbo.

I think this motor making 500whp would have similar fuel demands as a 600whp turbo motor.

But FOR SURE I want to buy the right parts so I'm not borderline-maybe having enough fuel.
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Old 07-07-2015, 04:52 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by patsmx5 View Post
Are ID 1300s enough with E85? Also don't forget this is supercharged, BSFC is ****, thus burns more fuel to make the same power as a turbo.

I think this motor making 500whp would have similar fuel demands as a 600whp turbo motor.
Should be. Soviet made 460whp on E85 maxing out ID1000s at 60psi of base pressure, IIRC. 1300s is ~30% more fuel flow, so 30% more power capacity Figure ~590whp, assuming the fuel pump can keep up. ID says the same thing ("ID1300s ... capable of approximately 150hp per injector on E85").

If you want 600whp of headroom on E85, I take back the DW300 suggestion - I don't think it will keep up. A Walbro 400-E85 pump might do it, but you also might need a twin-pump setup at that point. Something like a DW200 or Walbro 255 in the tank acting as a lift pump, which feeds a Bosch 044 acting as a pressure pump. That will flow whatever you need it to, but you'll be in uncharted territory with regard to overheating the fuel/pump at low speed. Some sort of controller to modulate the 044 under the car to prevent it from overheating might be necessary. I had plans to play with something like that on Theseus, but I scrapped them. My fuel system on the 02SE will use a DW300 and ID1000s or ID1300s, but I also have no plans to go past ~450whp on E85.

You don't really have an option to go larger than ID1300 if you want to maintain idle quality on gasoline, unfortunately. ID2000s are there, and ID1700s are coming to market shortly, but even ID admits those injectors are designed for cars running E85/E100 or methanol exclusively. You'll be idling ID2000s at ~12:1 on gas and driveability isn't going to be all that great.
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Old 07-07-2015, 06:38 PM   #17
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Pretty much what he said: once you go above id1300's you're gonna have a race car idle. not the end of the world, but it won't be like stock. and once you go past 500 you're gonna need to get creative with pumps, and in pretty uncharted territory by miata's. 044's, wally 485, and id2000's are used in the evo/suby world but their definition of "street car" is different from mine lol

go do a proper VD and post up, as well as the log. I want to see at least your approx power and what your IDC's look like now, so we know where you're at with the current setup. id1000 and dw300 won't go past 450, I'm pretty certain
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Old 07-07-2015, 07:09 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 18psi View Post
Pretty much what he said: once you go above id1300's you're gonna have a race car idle. not the end of the world, but it won't be like stock. and once you go past 500 you're gonna need to get creative with pumps, and in pretty uncharted territory by miata's. 044's, wally 485, and id2000's are used in the evo/suby world but their definition of "street car" is different from mine lol

go do a proper VD and post up, as well as the log. I want to see at least your approx power and what your IDC's look like now, so we know where you're at with the current setup. id1000 and dw300 won't go past 450, I'm pretty certain
Here is a log from last night. I don't have a VD of a full pull yet. Guess would be 300-350whp right now as the timing is super soft. But timing/knock sensor crap if for another thread. You can see in the log I got single digit timing right now and the knock sensor is having a field day! I got a feeling the knock sensor is full of crap at high RPMs though but I'm going leaner than target at high RPMs and can't add any more fuel, thus this thread.



Also unrelated, but working on a/c lines and wiring for a/c fans right now, can't be tuning without ac! Going to wire the fans and rewire fuel pump at the same time.
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Old 07-07-2015, 07:17 PM   #19
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Maybe consider the Walbro 460 pump for e85 (F90000267) and you could give the new ID1700 a go. They've got all stainless internals like the ID1300 so e85 compatibility is awesome. The ID2000 has been known to have some rust issues in high humidity climates when using e85.

With the ID1700 you can run lower fuel pressure (3bar base instead of going to 60+psi with ID1300) so that the pump will flow more with these, since fuel pump flow tanks when pressure increases. On e85, odds are you will be able to maintain a perfectly reasonable idle with them. They were specifically made so that cars running e85 would still be capable of idling at stoich.

Check out the page for the ID1700. It says "The ID1700 will deliver flawless stoichiometric idle and cruise mixtures on E85, but like the ID2000, should not be expected to do so on gasoline."

ID1700 Injectors - Injector Dynamics
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Old 07-07-2015, 07:22 PM   #20
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Maybe consider the Walbro 460 pump for e85 (F90000267) and you could give the new ID1700 a go. They've got all stainless internals like the ID1300 so e85 compatibility is awesome. The ID2000 has been known to have some rust issues in high humidity climates when using e85.

With the ID1700 you can run lower fuel pressure (3bar base instead of going to 60+psi with ID1300) so that the pump will flow more with these, since fuel pump flow tanks when pressure increases. On e85, odds are you will be able to maintain a perfectly reasonable idle with them. They were specifically made so that cars running e85 would still be capable of idling at stoich.

Check out the page for the ID1700. It says "The ID1700 will deliver flawless stoichiometric idle and cruise mixtures on E85, but like the ID2000, should not be expected to do so on gasoline."

ID1700 Injectors - Injector Dynamics
I gotta have a good idle on gasoline too. This is a street car and that's pretty important to me.

From what I'm gathering, it's either 1,300cc ID injectors, or add more injectors.

I'll look into that pump, thanks for the heads up!
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