worth it to build a 1.6L
07-30-2009, 12:50 AM
#61
I would like to think enough of our society that someone couldn't be this stupid. You are puting subjective reasoning into something that was an objective question. From an objective stand point, a 1.8L will be more effiecient at making more power from the same size turbo and at a lower RPM. From a subjective stand point, I feel it is a worthwhile investment.
Objective:
Goal 300whp
On hand - 1.6l
Not on hand - 1.8l
Which will make 300whp SAFELY? Both (with a good bottom end, you can do it on both with stock internals, but you never know when it might pop).
Which requires no additional parts to install/simple PnP? 1.6l
Cost of parts? Same
Subjective:
Both will meet your goal, doesn't matter. I would go with whatever is easier, which would be the 1.6l, since you already have 2.
If you think 15% more displacement is important, try a 5.0, that's a bit more than 15%, and they make kits to install those as well.
You have 2 engines that could be pretty easily traded for a buildable 1.8L. Once you build the 1.6L the spare will be useless.
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07-30-2009, 12:53 AM
#62
Well, if I was using my Hoosiers the car would have probably hooked, but on street tires, eh, no. We tuned for what we were running, which is how your supposed to do it. With the tiny Greddy turbo, you don't really get much of a chance to modulate the boost with throttle inputs, plus we weren't trying to baby it around the track, we were out to beat on an Evo
Why don't you and "the stig" come out to Harris Hill on September 12th?
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07-30-2009, 01:18 AM
#66
Bull **** they don't matter. If you keep up with a guy in a Z06 but he is a crap driver, then congrats you kept up with a crap driver in a Z06. The car is onyl part of the equation. Lap times are the best representation of what a car is capable of doing, especialy when comparing it to other vehicles.
How about this info:
"the Stig" was 1 sec off Keith Verges lap record in a SM....in Keith's backup car, revving only to 5500rpm (new engine break-in) and me in it. I weigh 250lbs, just so you know the extra ballast he was running. That is why he got a few ride from Keith, only rule was "you can't pass me" - Keith.
Was out at MSR doing the 3.1 track with Bob Stretch, getting his ITA Miata dialed in for the 25hr @ Thunderhill. Last session Bob went home, and let "the Stig" drive. He was less than 2 sec off Bob's time, first time ever in the car, driving into a setting sun. Incase you don't know who Bob Stretch is, he used to run BMWs in Speed World Challenge.
"the Stig" has been asked by Apex Driving Academy, and TDE to be a driving instructor. Cut 3 sec off a SM rookie just by riding along, and coaching him, in one session.
Currently getting a free ride in TX Sprint Car Series. You know, the oval dirt track cars with the huge wings. Was offered a spot for the Chili Bowl Sprint Car race, but couldn't make it due to work and other issues. This is the event that is by invite only, and is where all the celebrities race (NASCAR drivers, etc). They had a special on Speed TV.
Did I mention he is the driver, crew chief, and mechanic? He didn't get accepted for the Rhys Millen Speed TV show (Solstice Turbo) cause he didn't have a crew, and they wouldn't allow a one man team.
Cliff notes: HE'S ******* GOOD
No, you do not change your tune for different tires. You change your driving style. Boost with a greddy kit on a 1.6L does not come on so fast that you are either in vacuum or making 13psi.
Why don't you and "the stig" come out to Harris Hill on September 12th?
Do you want to wait till I get the motor built, or would a stock block 1.6l making about 300whp be good enough?
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07-30-2009, 01:38 AM
#74
All else being equal (turbo, boost, exhaust ...) the 1.8 will make more power off boost, spool the turbo faster and make more ultimate power. Only a retard would argue that this isn't true. There isn't really any downside to the additional 200cc.
Having run a greddy kit in the past at 15psi I can say the issue with that setup isn't the amount of power it makes, but how late it spools. I found that the power came on hard at all the wrong times while autoxing. I found a good solution to the problem, modulate the happy pedal.
I personally will continue to develop my car with the 1.6l engine. I have it already, and my turbo setup is built around it. If I was starting from scratch, 1.8 would be the only way to go. The "character" of the 1.6 is completely lost once you strap a turbo to it. It isn't even like driving the same car, so that argument is moot. I'll take the low end torque over peaky power ... this is after all why I don't own a honda.
Having run a greddy kit in the past at 15psi I can say the issue with that setup isn't the amount of power it makes, but how late it spools. I found that the power came on hard at all the wrong times while autoxing. I found a good solution to the problem, modulate the happy pedal.
I personally will continue to develop my car with the 1.6l engine. I have it already, and my turbo setup is built around it. If I was starting from scratch, 1.8 would be the only way to go. The "character" of the 1.6 is completely lost once you strap a turbo to it. It isn't even like driving the same car, so that argument is moot. I'll take the low end torque over peaky power ... this is after all why I don't own a honda.
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07-30-2009, 02:03 AM
#77
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Trollfeeding aside, Jay is completely right. It's actually 242cc of displacement, and if you are planning to bore either one 1mm over (like anyone in their right mind would do), the difference grows to 245cc. You can make the power with a 1.6, but it will take more boost, which means more heat. heat = bad. The 1.8 will make the power sooner, it will make it smoother, and it will make more of it for the same boost level. Even if your entire turbo setup is based around a 1.6 kit, the cost to upgrade to a 1.8 is still worth it, IMO - you can sell your 1.6 manifold and DP, upgrade to 1.8 parts, and swap the motor in and only end up a few hundred bucks out of pocket. Look at what people pay for an FM stroker - and that only adds 90cc (on top of what the 84.5mm pistons give you).
I just finished tuning a customer's FM-built 1.6 with a GT2860RS and a .86 hotside. The car drove nicely (at least after I was done), but the amount of lag really surprised me. I've seen Hustler's datalogs with the exact same setup (BEGI S3, 2860RS .86) and the spool (and even the response between gears) is noticeably better.
As far as what year to build, the '01 is probably the best due to the MBSP, but I doubt it's necessary to make anything below 400whp. A '99 head is definitely a very good idea, but there are no major differences in the blocks. If I were choosing, I would go with a '94-95 block because the oil/coolant ports below the headers are still tapped and plugged.
I just finished tuning a customer's FM-built 1.6 with a GT2860RS and a .86 hotside. The car drove nicely (at least after I was done), but the amount of lag really surprised me. I've seen Hustler's datalogs with the exact same setup (BEGI S3, 2860RS .86) and the spool (and even the response between gears) is noticeably better.
As far as what year to build, the '01 is probably the best due to the MBSP, but I doubt it's necessary to make anything below 400whp. A '99 head is definitely a very good idea, but there are no major differences in the blocks. If I were choosing, I would go with a '94-95 block because the oil/coolant ports below the headers are still tapped and plugged.
Last edited by Savington; 07-30-2009 at 02:23 AM.
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07-31-2009, 07:58 PM
#78
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the 1.6 motor starts off at 1597cc,
the 1.8 motor starts off at 1839cc, and with a rebuild and a 1mm overbore, it comes out to 1885 cc, very close to a 1.9 and almost a 300cc difference between the 2 motors.
The extra displacement will help spool a turbo, hitting full boost much quicker, also giving a wider and more usuable powerband. The driver does not have to rev as much as he needs in a 1.6, which also saves the engine due to stress in daily driving. The extra cc also makes bigger turbos much viable. A miata that hits full boost at around 3k to 4k rpm makes a very nice driveable miata thank you very much.
This is just my two cents worth.
the 1.8 motor starts off at 1839cc, and with a rebuild and a 1mm overbore, it comes out to 1885 cc, very close to a 1.9 and almost a 300cc difference between the 2 motors.
The extra displacement will help spool a turbo, hitting full boost much quicker, also giving a wider and more usuable powerband. The driver does not have to rev as much as he needs in a 1.6, which also saves the engine due to stress in daily driving. The extra cc also makes bigger turbos much viable. A miata that hits full boost at around 3k to 4k rpm makes a very nice driveable miata thank you very much.
This is just my two cents worth.
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10-02-2012, 02:23 PM
#79
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So.. necro post here.. just found this thread researching built motors. But holy **** this guy is a moron. So sad I missed this thread the first time around (3 years ago now), I do remember ray_sir_6 and his claimed 200+whp greddy kit on wastegate though.
Anyways bump for the lulz. I got a kick out of it at least..
Anyways bump for the lulz. I got a kick out of it at least..
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10-02-2012, 04:04 PM
#80
lol, I've been doing it wrong all along
1.6 is more revvy
spool at 4.5k rpm (lol what?)
450whp out out a GT2871R
400-450whp is EASY, guys!
1.6l rev higher stock than the 1.8l. The slight increase in displacement isn't gonna make it spool a bigger turbo much faster.
You'll be able to spin a 1.6l higher to make up for it. I prefer to spin 8k rpm, and make full boost around 4.5-5k rpm. Even with a GT2871R (good for 400-450whp) that should be easy to do.
You'll be able to spin a 1.6l higher to make up for it. I prefer to spin 8k rpm, and make full boost around 4.5-5k rpm. Even with a GT2871R (good for 400-450whp) that should be easy to do.
spool at 4.5k rpm (lol what?)
450whp out out a GT2871R
400-450whp is EASY, guys!
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