Trackspeed Engineering Front BBK - Group Buy
 

5 kits sold, 5 available at our $600 group buy price.

Finally got some test time on our BBK so the group buy can begin.

This kit will retrofit a Wilwood 4-piston caliper and an 11" VW Corrado front rotor to your Miata.

Attachment 203264

Attachment 203265

This kit will include the following:

-Wilwood Dynalite forged 4-piston caliper
-Trackspeed Engineering caliper brackets
-stainless steel brake lines
-centering rings for Corrado rotors
-Grade 8 hardware

Where are the pads and rotors?
The kit will NOT include pads and rotors - we think a lot of you already have the rotors, and there's a vast variety of pad compounds out there. We'll be recommending standard cheap rotors and Carbotech pads, and we can source this combo and ship it with the kit for an additional cost.

Can I buy just the brackets?
A lot of folks asked for the brackets alone as well, and we'll be selling those separately for those of you who have calipers, or if you want to source everything else yourself. Bare brackets will sell for $170.

What are the benefits beyond a standard Corrado rotor upgrade?
The biggest benefit is pad life. The stock caliper unevenly distributes the force of the single piston across the pad, which results in tapered wear patterns and severely compromised pad life. I've also experienced rotor cracking resulting from this uneven loading. The Wilwood calipers are 4-piston and non-floating, which means the loads are far more even. In my testing, the pads wear straight, and I expect to get at least double the life out of my track pads using this caliper vs. a stock caliper with Corrado rotors.

What about brake bias?
We are HIGHLY recommending you couple this kit with a Flyin' Miata brake bias valve. The stock valve is biased heavily towards the front and adding big front rotors and calipers won't help that at all. With the bias valve in place, and using Carbotech XP12 pads front and rear, the bias in my car is to my liking.

Do I need to have 1.8 caliper brackets to use this kit?
No. :) This kit will retrofit to any 1990-1997 Miata - simply remove the stock caliper, caliper bracket, and rotor, and bolt up the new stuff.

Why do I need new lines?
The Wilwoods don't use a banjo fitting, so stock brake lines and aftermarket lines designed for stock calipers won't work.

What about wheel clearance?
The kit fits on any car with 6ULs. We will try to get a variety of wheels onto my car for fitment testing in the next few weeks.

What's this going to cost me?
Retail pricing on this item will be $650. For this group buy, the first 5 orders will get $100 off, and the second 5 will get $50 off. All buyers will pay S/H, CA residents will pay sales tax. (discounts for full kits only, brackets are full price)

Send order inquiries to sales@trackspeedengineering.com, and include the following:
-First and last name
-Paypal address
-Shipping address (for S/H/Tax calculation)

1st

In

I'm in too.

How is this different than the 1st gen FM BBK, and/or the old Panache BBK?


Pls. expound.

Jason, I know very little about the old FM BBK, and virtually nothing about the Panache BBK, so I couldn't comment on similarities or differences.

As far as the cracking goes, I ran through two sets of XP12s on a single set of Corrado rotors, and when I swapped to this BBK about a week ago (we tested it on our Inconel test car last weekend as well) I found small cracks in the rotors, in a radial direction. It's not uncommon in other cars, espcially C5 Corvettes - there's a kit offered that puts a Wilwood caliper on their stock rotor, and they see the same benefits - improved pad and rotor life.

this is a pretty damn good deal

Can't imagine why it wouldn't fit 99-05 as well.

Me neither, but I didn't want to say anything for sure until I bolted it up to a '99-05 upright myself. I have bolted it up to 1.6 and 1.8 uprights.

I should not have read this. Trying to sell a kidney for these right now. I presume that the rings for the rotors are the same as M-tuned supplied with their kit?

Any theories why a 4 piston caliper solves rotor cracking?

I'll try to explain it in Hustler's way!!

So if You take a chick and stab her with a piston only her left (or right) butt chick she will eventually turn around...maybe even crack something doing so!!!
But if You take it in middle of both chicks she will be pleasantly satisfied with ''center pointing'' and wont crack (although there could come some weird sounds of huuuge cracking > it depends on piston stab/clamp force!!!)

Now imagine the mans dream of having best toys...now imagine it double!!
You see this way You could stab both her butt chicks and she would be happy just like that and hopefully wouldn't be cracking.

Hope this clears Your question.

Cheers

Nicely done!

What model caliper do you use if sourcing yourself?

what is the thickest pad we can run? I know this rotor is not as thick as the goodwin kit, so we should be able to run the super-thick pads, right? Ic an get hawk dtc-30's in .48 or .65" thickness. Carbotech doesn't care to share this information with its customers.

It is just a theory, so keep that in mind.

Let's look at this photo:

Attachment 203228

That's a carbotech Xp10 that came out of a stock caliper. The extreme wear comes from the uneven loading that the stock caliper applies - on the outside, the two fingers don't reach down far enough, resulting in the wear you see there. On the side, the piston itself doesn't reach far enough to the edges of the pad, which results in similar wear, although in a perpendicular direction and not as pronounced.

The accelerated padwear is of special interest to me. That shows that in those areas, I was able to massively exceed the MOT of these pads, which is (IIRC) somewhere around 1400-1600 degrees. As you exceed the MOT, you burn through pads - this is why street pads have a tendency to magically disappear on the racetrack.

You're still disposing of the same heat energy, mind you, but that tapered wear and extremely reduced pad life shows that the heat energy is very clearly transferred to the rotor in a highly uneven fashion. Transferring the energy in an uneven fashion will result in far higher rotor temperatures, and something about the higher localized temps will lead to cracking. Whether it's the weaking of the iron, or the heat cycling, or something else, is beyond my scope of materials knowledge.

There's also empirical evidence - my roommate's C5 Vette with the same style of stock caliper would crack a stock rotor in 2 sessions at the racetrack. He installed a kit that put a Wilwood Superlite caliper on a stock brake rotor, and voila - no more rotor cracking.

Savington You just technically cleared and very well described what I've said in few words:naughty:
Even the picture is great adition to it...isn't it like a big assed women much bent over...just like she is on a sports bike!?!:firedevil
:bigtu::bigtu:

in after v8 conversion. rear kit coming?

We have thought about it, but it's not really needed and keeping the parking brake (a necessity IMO) shoots costs skyward. Would you be interested in something for the looks (matching Wilwood in rear) or just something for performance (larger piston area to help with more rear-bias but not necessarily pretty)?

Also, there is only one remaining kit at the $100 off price, so act now for that pricing.

ill just get it at retail later. need all the money for v8 swap now. as for rear kit - i really dont care how shit looks. i just want it to function and i want to stay away from single piston calipers :)

What is the estimated ETA? Not in a rush, just curious.

Reposting to help my search for cheap used calipers

The kit uses Wilwood Dynalite calipers.

He's asking for the model number you use since there's eleventy billion different calipers.

You'd need 1.4" piston calipers to match the stock piston size. I'd assume 120-6805 for 1" rotor or 120-6806 for .810" rotor 120-6806 WILL work with standard corrado rotors. The difference is only .05". I confirmed it with wilwood tech support, and then found that KMAG is running it.

Nice kit. Wonder how much better the DBA rotors are in terms of cooling. They better well be alot better for their $$$.

Cooling will still be an issue either way.

Are you planning to release cooling duct spindle plates that support keeping the ABS sensors? This winter?

Here's Sav's theory in a nutshell: The uneven pad pressure (which results in uneven pad wear), causes uneven rotor heating, and high thermal gradients can cause cracking.

Is there a caliper that's got the 2 pistons' total area that's X% smaller than the stocker's piston area, where X% is the amount that the Corrado rotors' pad center to spindle distance is greater than the stockers, in order to roughly match bias to factory?

Exactly, thanks Ben.

Isn't it easier to pick a caliper/rotor/pad combo that is better in terms of pricing/fit/availability and just use a proportioning valve for bias?

Chris

Maybe, I don't know the pad center to spindle distances. The step down in size from 1.38" pistons is to 1.25", or 90%. Might be what you're looking for.

And those calipers fit?? (BTW that's an 18% reduction FWIW).

If so that would get rid of the need for a prop valve!

My concern about the FM prop valve solution is that while it may give you the right prop for the track on whatever tires you have, it may still be wrong in the wet. (I know, the solution would be to have a different setting wet vs dry) My 2000 has ABS and IMO the factory proportioning is pretty darn good from wet to dry.

Anyone have the 1.8 stock piston diameters?

I think my car with the full BBK (front Wilwood, rear bracket with larger discs) and 94 ABS is also pretty good proportioned for track use. Are people using the prop valve with ABS?

Bah, it's 90% of the diameter, not 90% of the area. Sorry, I forgot to expand it out. My bad.

NB non sport front brakes are 2" diameter pistons. Should hold true for all standard 1.8 brakes. 1.6 brakes might be the same. Sport/MSM have a slightly larger piston.

The OEM prop valve is worse than a properly set-up FM valve in this respect, Jason. With the OEM valve, you send a ton to the front, and very little to the rear. With the FM valve, you send a bunch to the front, but enough to the rear as well.

Let's wet the roads down, now. With the OEM valve, you're still stuffing all that force to the front, but there's not as much weight transfer, which means not as much weight on the front tires, and suddenly they lock faster.

With the FM valve, you're sending more, which means as the rear tires do more of the work (in the rain, your rear tires do more work braking vs in the dry due to the lack of weight transfer). The FM valve would be BETTER than the OEM valve in the wet.

Race car drivers ADD rear bias in the rain.

i have the FM bias valve in my car and I've driven on the street in the wet and dry AND on the track in the wet and dry.

I set it up on the track in the dry a couple months ago because I finally got the tread worn off and had extreme grip. After the first session and 4 pit visits, the car was set up right. The car stops incredibly well, with enough rear bias that several people commented on how much the rear of the car wiggles on threshold braking. This car stops, and its easy to control in extreme trail braking...like 75-85mph through a triple-apex with a crest in the middle and off camber, downhill trail braking into a corner that tightens with an compromise exit.

Last weekend I drove in the rain on the track, and drove home in a light-shower, on slicks and had no danger issues either. Get the brake valve.

I also currently have sport brakes and they suck ass/kill pads in roughly 1.5 track events or 3 hours of track time. You really need multi-piston calipers if you're driving like a man.

Or brake too much j/k.
You have ABS too, or not?

5 orders recieved, the price is now $600 for the next 5.

no ABS, I'm a man.

If my car was running and I was a man I would have bought in. Instead i left my car in storage in TN for the past 6 months in un-running condition.

Make it happen?

Not until you've driven the Nürburgring Nordschleife, at speed, in the wet, without ABS. It's only 20.8km with ~73 bends of which most blind. And very bumpy.

Don't forget that the prop valves change through the years and on ABS / non ABS. My car is a 2000 with ABS. The brake balance on my car is waaaay better than my former 1997 without ABS.

It's not that simple. The prop valve is a 2-line segment approximation of a sideways-hyperbolic-looking curve.

http://pages.sbcglobal.net/jcuadra/brakes/brakedist.gif

3 parameters describe these 2 lines:
1) slope of first line
2) slope of 2nd line
3) location of knee

An adjustable prop valve only adjusts 1 parameter, the knee location. In theory you can adjust the other 2 parameters by diddling the front and rear brake pad friction coefficients.

The ideal curve is a function of car's weight distribution, wheelbase, and CG height. Note that the tire's grip does NOT affect the shape of the ideal curve.

With the ideal curve, you always get the right proportioning regardless of surface, from ice, to race tires on hot concrete. Front and rear will lock up at the same time.

The problem is when you use a prop valve which is a 2-segment approximation. As you can see there are only 2 points where the prop valve is exactly correct, where it touches the ideal curve. Everything else is a compromise. What part do you compromise? Hot concrete? Rain on shitty tires? Snow?

It is possible that for a given adjustable prop valve, which only has one adjuster (and not 3), that the slopes are wrong, and so you would have to adjust the knob for different levels of grip. And it is possible that for one setup, rain required the knob turned down, and on another, it requires the knob turned up.

Here's a long discussion. Pay special attention to the posts by Jon H:
[NA] Brake proportioning math - MX-5 Miata Forum

:)

Here's more
Attachment 203180

Attachment 203181

Any idea if this would work with Konig Heliums?

Jason, I don't think you can understand the difference until you've driven on the track with a proper tuned brake bias.

I want to know how this is for ABS cars.

I've driven my sister's MSM on the track and it could use significantly more brake in the rear.

Hustler, with Cobalt GT's (high c.f.) front and rear my car is slightly unstable braking hard from 100 -> 50 (or so) entering turn 14 at Thunderhill.

On the street Cobalt GT's front and rear will easily induce oversteer in trail braking.

My conclusion is that I don't need more rear bias with the stock brakes, if I use high cf pads front and rear.

BTW in the MF thread, I explained why increasing the c.f. of both front and rear increases rear bias.
With stockish front and rear pads, yes, it needs more rear bias.

Here are the Dynalite calipers
Wilwood Engineering - Forged Billet Dynalite Caliper

Can someone measure the approximate distance from the spindle to the middle of the pad on the Corrado rotors?

I eyeballed my '00 brakes. Radius from spindle to center of pad appears to be 3.9".
Because the Corrado rotors are 1" larger in diameter, I will assume their radius is 4.4", or about 13% more. So the piston area of the Dynalites will need to be 11% smaller to maintain the bias.

If the 94-00 stock piston dia is 2.00", then the dynalites would have to be 1.33".

The 1.38" dynalites would have 10% more front braking than stock.
The 1.25" dynalites would have 12% less than stock. This may be a good choice for those that want more rear bias.

I would go with the latter, then fine tune the bias with the rear pads. Because the front pads need to be more aggressive anyway than the rears, this may be perfect, by using a milder rear pad.

Oh, and do Carbotech make XP12 pads for these Dynalites?

Ideal curves are great in theory, Jason, but in the real world we have to deal with factors like changing pad temperatures (and thus changing coefficients of friction) and changes in traction between the front and rear tires. If you obtain that perfect bias with pad material and piston sizing, you WILL spin your car eventually - I guarantee it. Race tracks are not magical lands where the pavement is absolutely and utterly smooth - if you take a "perfectly" biased car into a rough, bumpy braking zone, eventually you will lock the rear tires, and a locked tire does not easily unlock - and presto, you're backwards into the soft stuff.

No part - you adjust the valve for your conditions. In the rain, you want a car with more rear bias (knee moved up) because even though the 1:1 curve might exceed the ideal curve at some point, and rise up into the no-man's land (rear lockup), by the time you've applied that kind of force to the front brakes they've locked up due to the reduced traction conditions.

The slopes are always wrong with prop valves, though - they are lines and not curves. They have to be wrong, because if they weren't wrong people would spin their cars left and right for the reasons I mentioned above.

I don't think this is possible. If you look at those curves, it's possible to set the knee so high that you get rear lockup. If you set it perfectly (such as in your first chart) and then reduce traction, you will always lock the fronts first, and it will get worse for a while, and then better. Bring the knee up by increasing rear bias, and the 1:1 line gets closer and closer to the ideal curve - thus, better bias. If you need to turn the rear bias down (move the knee down) in order to get closer to the ideal curve, I would suggest that it was *way* too high to start with.

At the end of the day, there's also empirical evidence. I've used XP12/10s in stock brakes and the fronts lock first. I've used XP10/10s, and the fronts lock first - to the point where I can apply so much pedal force that the backing plates warp, and the rear tires never lock. This is all on stock 1.8 brakes with a stock proportioning valve.

Also - Wilwood doesn't make a 1.25" piston Dynalite. They claim in their description of the caliper that they make a 1.12, but I can't find it for a .81 rotor width. They make a 1" caliper, but it's a totally different caliper with different mounts, and only for a 1.25" wide rotor.

Carbotech does make an XP12 for the Dynalite, yes - I am using XP12s front and rear right now. I used to run 10s in the rear, but switched to 12s because the friction coefficient is higher, which provides more rear bias and keeps the bias knob from needing to be set fully in.

Do people actually mount that thing in the car and fiddle with it because their fuel level is lower? I ordered one and tend to fit it near the OEM location and not fiddle with it much after tuning. Same reason I don't have adjustable suspension, you keep blaming it.

From the FM kit - I assume you are using the same?
Bore size: 1.38" (35,1 mm)
Disc width: .81" (20,6mm)
Wilwood Engineering - Forged Billet Dynalite Caliper

Uhh
2" dia = (2/2)^2 * pi = 3.14 sqin
2x1.38" dia = 2 * ( (1.38/2)^2 * pi ) = 3,00 sqin or 4% less.
Or not?

One of our first buyers backed out, so I have ONE kit available at the $550 price. Send your Paypal address and shipping address to sales@trackspeedengineering.com and I will reply with a shipping quote and total.

I just sent you money, ------. Tone down the disrespect or I'm going to send you fake billing information next time.

Die of aids, high-pressure salesman.

I did. Hasn't changed much since I dialed it in at Zandvoort. It sure is easier than pulling over, popping the hood, adjust and try again tho...

You should give a few more people the 550 buy in price...... It'd make me ditch the 949 upgrade I currently have a bit faster :D

62704 for shipping quote

This kit is só worth the $650 he's asking.