WeaponX Coils & B.E. Coil On Plug Conversion PNP - Miata Turbo Forum - Boost cars, acquire cats.

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Old 11-17-2008, 11:22 PM   #1
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Default WeaponX Coils & B.E. Coil On Plug Conversion PNP

So I've been working on my coil on plug aftermarket system. Its about 90% complete and I figured this would be a good time to gauge interest.

The system would be complete plug and play and would provide 150mJ of spark energy and multiple spark at lower engine speeds. Thatís 50% more spark energy then the stock coils. These are the most powerful coil on plugs available as far as I know. This is a direct coil on plug, no short boot or connection between the sparkplug and the coil. The company claims a mpg increase and increases in horsepower. I'll have the unit on my car in about two weeks for direct testing though.

Everything would be included, including the control box which sets dwell and takes care of other functions, the coils, and the wiring harness. Everything professionally wired to mil-specification, completely waterproof, and as easy as unplug spark plugs and stock coils then plug in new wiring harness and coil on plugs.

I'm thinking this kit would be in the $325-$375 range. Let me know what you guys think.


** I only have this setup for my car at present so the 94-97 is what I would be working with in the next month or so. This would be available for the 90-93 and the 99-up BP's but I'd need donars so I can get the plugs made.

Last edited by TravisR; 11-18-2008 at 11:52 AM.
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Old 11-19-2008, 12:20 AM   #2
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Not to be a dick or anything, but what advantages do these have over savingtons setup? His are 300 shipped starting in his next batch, why would anyone want to pay more for the samething?
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Old 11-19-2008, 12:37 AM   #3
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Well, the price is high IMO. Granted, I don't know what the parts cost new, but as thesnowboarder said, you are high compared to the most expensive COP solution we have right now. Granted, I'll assume your coils are new vs. sav's being used. Not that they wear out or anything. Most here would rather have cheap COPs then the most expensive/bestest super high spark output.

NOT trying to start anything by the way, just incase you think I'm attacking you. I'm glad to see people going out and bringing more stuff to the market. Competition is good. But you gotta remember something. COPs were not brought about to fix a problem. It was more like a "hey, these are cheap, look cool, and then we don't have to buy sparkplug wires! Oh, and they're probably better than the stock coils!) So offering the most powerful/most expensive setup is not what most are looking for.

Now, if you made a trigger wheel setup for miatas, you'd sell the hell out of them. This has been 'talked' about before, but nobody ever did anything. I believe someone (maybe Joe Perez) has a blueprint posted on the forum for the hub adapter. Stock CAS's do suck, and trigger wheel setups are the future. So if you sold an affordable hub that a common, cheap, readily available trigger wheel would bolt up to, and an adapter to mount a cheap, readily available VR sensor to, then you could sell the hell out of them. You'd have customers standing in line. I know I've told you before to gauge interest and ask what people want. Give it a try one day.
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Old 11-19-2008, 01:27 AM   #4
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Well first and foremost I always find things I really want/need to put on my car. My car developed a miss about a month ago, and rather than go buy new spark plug wires, I decided I needed to really push ahead and finish development on the whole new ignition system I've been thinking about. Makes sense right?? Well it did for me...

To sum it up:

Lasts longer.
Dwell Reducer built in. (Toyota coils are being overdriven 200-250% on stock dwell)
About 50% more power to the plug then stock/Toyota coils.(No matter how much boost you are good)
Multiple spark at low R.P.M. for better fuel mileage.
New coils and easy supply of more.
Comes with warrantee
Mil-spec harness
You can hook any set of coils to the control box as igniters and tach signal functions are not done in the coil anymore.


There is a lot of hardware in this kit. 2 Igniters, a dwell reduction board, actually plugs not hacked stock stuff, a tachometer signal board, 4 coils, a milspec wiring harness, and then an enclosure where the stock coils used to sit for all the above electronics.

I've also been trying to work with Savington, I think we're still on for joining forces. I wanted to offer the Toyota cops as the "street" version and this as the race version. Its not like I want to run the guy out. He's doing a hell of a job.

I'm always down for whatever the community wants as long as there is enough people to warrant the time to help out. Just send me a PM, and I'll see what I can do.
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Old 11-19-2008, 09:18 AM   #5
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Could you sell just the coils, ignitors, and the plugs for the coils/ignitors so that all the people running MS could buy your new parts, then build their COPs setup? What kinda price would just those components run? Hell, I might be interested.

In for many pics.
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Old 11-19-2008, 09:33 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by patsmx5 View Post
. COPs were not brought about to fix a problem. It was more like a "hey, these are cheap, look cool, and then we don't have to buy sparkplug wires! Oh, and they're probably better than the stock coils!)
Watch how you go about saying things like that. I can't run more than 14 psi on my stock '99 coils due to spark blow out with a .022" plug gap with NGK blue wires(they're new).

I support this project, interested to see how they look. Too bad I already have my Toyota COPs.
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Old 11-19-2008, 09:48 AM   #7
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Originally Posted by patsmx5 View Post
...COPs were not brought about to fix a problem. It was more like a "hey, these are cheap, look cool, and then we don't have to buy sparkplug wires! Oh, and they're probably better than the stock coils!...
We don't do things around here just to be cool. Cool just happens. Please turn in your Miataturbo.net membership card at the front desk.

Seriously though, COPs were specifically brought about as an inexpensive solution to the Miata's weak spark problem. We have to run ridiculously small spark gap to keep the cylinders firing.


TravisR, I look forward to the results as well. I would be interested in a less expensive option (sans control box) for those of us with stand alone ECUs.
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Old 11-19-2008, 10:29 AM   #8
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Multiple spark sounds cool, and might be worth the extra $25 to $50 over what Savington is offering. I'll be watching for progress.

Since they will be completely plug and play, and offer better gas mileage you might have some interest from the wine and cheesers too. I'm sure they wouldn't mind going on their scenic tours using less gas.
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Old 11-19-2008, 11:06 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by cjernigan View Post
Watch how you go about saying things like that. I can't run more than 14 psi on my stock '99 coils due to spark blow out with a .022" plug gap with NGK blue wires(they're new).

I support this project, interested to see how they look. Too bad I already have my Toyota COPs.
Yeah, I hear ya. The stock system is weak for boost if you insist on running a lot of gap. But many have ran less gap and have no problems. The merits of running more gap are minimal. Same as multiple sparks. I mean, if the plug sparks and lites the mixture, then it's burning. What does sparking more do?

Mazdilla, some people do things thinking they're improving something, but in fact are not. That's my point.

And again, a cheaper setup would be awesome. Like just the COPs and ignitors w/ plugs and pins to wire them up.
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Old 11-19-2008, 02:04 PM   #10
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The big cost comes from the coils unfortunately. Right now I'm getting the coils for around 200 for the set of 4, and there isn't much I can do to change that. The wiring harness isn't that expensive and the electronics aren't that expensive. I think I have markup at 10%, which is really not much most companies do 20% at least and in the aftermarket car industries its between 40-50% and they sell you under engineered junk.

For the guys with the standalones I could do the coils igniters, and plugs w/o the harness, but right now the way the electronics are setup it is all on one board. So any savings I would get from not putting the other 2 features on there would just be in the cost of components and assembly so maybe 10-20 dollars off whatever the price is then another 40 or so for the harness because the plugs are expensive. I mean 125$-175$ for electronics (igniters, dwell, and tachometer), harness, and some very expensive to produce connectors is not that bad of a price I don't think. There are some slightly lower output coils that I could get from weapon-x that puts out about 120mJ and they would be 160$ for the set. These don't have multi-spark and don't have the omega main spark for high boost, but they are better than stock and the Toyota units. That would bring the price to 280-330, but I'm not much on half assing things. I want to sell the best, because that's what I would put on my car, and that's what I think other people would want to put on theirs.

**also without getting into theory multi-spark has proven to create more torque and slight decrease of fuel consumption as Porsche I know for sure and others use multi-spark systems. They are more expensive units, and they do increase NOX so not every manufacturer wants to deal with the pollution standard implications.

Last edited by TravisR; 11-19-2008 at 06:06 PM.
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Old 11-19-2008, 08:31 PM   #11
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I'd be in for a set. If the multi-spark increased NOx significantly it might be handy to be able to disable it temporarily for those of us who have to make it through emmision tests (although I would guess it would decrease hydrocarbon and CO emmisions).
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Old 11-28-2008, 10:31 AM   #12
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Mil-spec harness
You repeat this several times and I would like to see a picture of this specific harness, or if you dont have any made, the wire and connections you will be using.

Just out of curiosity...
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Old 11-28-2008, 03:54 PM   #13
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I don't have any made, I'm still waiting on the connectors.

The connectors from Mazda, and for the coils are fine as long as they pass the salt spray, vibration, waterproof, polarization, load, and fatigue tests. Which I know these do because they come from an automotive spec. (don't have much of a choice since these are PNP units anyways)

The wire...
MIL-22759/19
These are ETFE coated silver plated conductors for operating environments -50-150C. This wire is used in vehicles like the F-22 for lightweight electronics, abrasion resistance, chemical resistance, and radiation resistance.

The heat shrink is MIL-I-23053/18 Class 2 (-50-150C)

MIL-I-3190/3 for the wire protector tubing.

The 3 wire intersects all use the "diaper wrap" electrical tape join for obliquity, and these are sealed as well. The electronics box seals are all waterproof, but probably don't meet mil-spec. Electrical boxes always have to be made of steel and iridited to that lovely olive-drab color.

My first test on the motor with the new coils after we verify they function properly is a 5 gallon bucket of water dumped on the installed electronics, I’ll know if I need to make any changes then.

Last edited by TravisR; 11-28-2008 at 09:19 PM.
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Old 11-29-2008, 02:12 PM   #14
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The wire...
MIL-22759/19
These are ETFE coated silver plated conductors for operating environments -50-150C. This wire is used in vehicles like the F-22 for lightweight electronics, abrasion resistance, chemical resistance, and radiation resistance.
Good standard wire quality choice...better than something from NAPA or Advance Auto's selection.

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The heat shrink is MIL-I-23053/18 Class 2 (-50-150C)
Standard choice. mental note though, heat shrink doesnt keep water out at the wire insertion point unless it uses a meltable seal, like a Raytheon butt splice for instance. It will deter, but not remove the possibility of water corrosion.

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MIL-I-3190/3 for the wire protector tubing.
Seriously, given location of the harness and the voltages required, this is utter and complete overkill (read: not required). Better choices are available here that could keep your costs down to where people might be tempted and still meet design requirements. This type of tubing is used for abrasion and heat resistance, as well as a retarded amount of dielectric strength (main factor). It doesnt like hydraulic fluid, and automotive oil is an untested parameter (wont be much different i assure you). You dont want to know what this stuff looks like after fluid contamination, nor the fact that after its soaked in, it does a good job of keeping the wires inside just as wet. The wires themselves (they are coated for a reason) work just fine in an open environment. Thats what they were designed for, to replace the aging and brittle yellow insulated crap of the 80's that was falling apart.

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The 3 wire intersects all use the "diaper wrap" electrical tape join for obliquity, and these are sealed as well.
String Tie would be a better choice here as it last longer for breakouts. The only way its coming off is cutting it. Well, that or improper tying procedure. How were you sealing these?

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The electronics box seals are all waterproof, but probably don't meet mil-spec.
Depends.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TravisR View Post
Electrical boxes always have to be made of steel and iridited to that lovely olive-drab color.
No, they dont.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TravisR View Post
My first test on the motor with the new coils after we verify they function properly is a 5 gallon bucket of water dumped on the installed electronics, Iíll know if I need to make any changes then.
Depending on where you mount your electronics this is completely pointless, and I will laugh my *** off when you find out what happens when you dump 70 degree water on a 200+ degree peice of aluminum. Or a 1000+ degree cast iron exhaust manifold.


There is a lot more to making a "Mil-Spec" wiring harness, than just grabbing stuff from work and throwing it together.

If I were you, id just say it includes a well-built harness and call it a day.
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Old 11-29-2008, 02:41 PM   #15
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I would be interested in a set, they have to be done before spring though lol
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Old 11-29-2008, 02:54 PM   #16
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Good standard wire quality choice...better than something from NAPA or Advance Auto's selection.



Standard choice. mental note though, heat shrink doesnt keep water out at the wire insertion point unless it uses a meltable seal, like a Raytheon butt splice for instance. It will deter, but not remove the possibility of water corrosion.



Seriously, given location of the harness and the voltages required, this is utter and complete overkill (read: not required). Better choices are available here that could keep your costs down to where people might be tempted and still meet design requirements. This type of tubing is used for abrasion and heat resistance, as well as a retarded amount of dielectric strength (main factor). It doesnt like hydraulic fluid, and automotive oil is an untested parameter (wont be much different i assure you). You dont want to know what this stuff looks like after fluid contamination, nor the fact that after its soaked in, it does a good job of keeping the wires inside just as wet. The wires themselves (they are coated for a reason) work just fine in an open environment. Thats what they were designed for, to replace the aging and brittle yellow insulated crap of the 80's that was falling apart.



String Tie would be a better choice here as it last longer for breakouts. The only way its coming off is cutting it. Well, that or improper tying procedure. How were you sealing these?



Depends.



No, they dont.



Depending on where you mount your electronics this is completely pointless, and I will laugh my *** off when you find out what happens when you dump 70 degree water on a 200+ degree peice of aluminum. Or a 1000+ degree cast iron exhaust manifold.


There is a lot more to making a "Mil-Spec" wiring harness, than just grabbing stuff from work and throwing it together.

If I were you, id just say it includes a well-built harness and call it a day.
The testing goes on of course right after start up, not after it reaches a 1000* I thought about putting that in there, but decided to see if anyone would pick on me for it.

I've had to accommodate structurally for mil-spec harnesses on this C-130 project I was working on over the summer. I learned a lot about designing the harnesses from the double EE's and RF engineers. I won't nail a spec precisely, but its more mil-spec then not. Would be my luck and dig up an expert in the field. Gotta rain on my parade.

All of our mounted electronics in the C-130 had to be either iridited steel, or if it was in some locations it could be weather anodized aluminum. I did all the structural stuff for the project so that was my field. I got the design params for a contractor. Could of been just a spec for that aircraft though.
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Old 11-29-2008, 03:02 PM   #17
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I'm no EE, so I don't fully understand what all this mill spec talk is about. But from reading Archetype's criticism, I gather he's saying, in short, "quit trying too hard and over-engineering your wiring for nothing. Just make it work." If so, +1. We'd rather be able to afford your products rather than look at pics of them and say "That's the best COP setup for a miata. If you sell your car, you can afford it."
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Old 11-29-2008, 03:08 PM   #18
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Im not here to rain on your parade, I just think its better that you properly advertise your product. Just because something is "mostly" something doesnt mean that it is that something. Like I said just state its a well built wiring harness, which it should be given someone who has experience doing this sort of thing.

I even gave you some good tips on how to improve your possible design to both lower cost and speed assembly process. Trust me its nothing that could hurt looking into.

BTW, I have the NAVAIR TM on my computer if youre wondering

Ive also been working with these for the past decade

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Old 11-29-2008, 03:16 PM   #19
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BTW the Technical Manual is 1064 pages in case you were curious.
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Old 11-29-2008, 03:19 PM   #20
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Im not here to rain on your parade, I just think its better that you properly advertise your product. Just because something is "mostly" something doesnt mean that it is that something. Like I said just state its a well built wiring harness, which it should be given someone who has experience doing this sort of thing.

I even gave you some good tips on how to improve your possible design to both lower cost and speed assembly process. Trust me its nothing that could hurt looking into.

BTW, I have the NAVAIR TM on my computer if youre wondering

Ive also been working with these for the past decade

All in jest my friend. I listen and listen to suggestions and I do appreciate your comments. I've worked with some army stuff. It was an experimental aircraft. I asked what, but they wouldn't tell me. Just design you lowly wretch.
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