Alrighty, new sensor is in. A quick run through the gears with some data logging shows AFRS dropping smoothly under full boost / 100%tps..which is good. The odd is my AFRs only go as high as 16 when I let off the throttle...so I might need to retry the free air calibration. Also, AFRs at WOT were low 10s...which could also be calibration. But the important thing is that the range of AFR seems more normal and linear to TPS/Boost.
Funny thing. When I took the 13246 out of the box, there were no markings on it, but if you pull back the loom/sleeve that covers the very top of the sensor, there is NTK markings on it. I mean, I knew it was a re-boxed NTK by my research, but it's funny to see how Bosch tries to cover it up :giggle: |
I'm stilll curious about that super cheap one I linked to. it had the right honda P/N...
|
yeah... I was thinking about it, but I can return anything I buy in person much easier if it doesn't work. The only one I would have ordered online is the one from FM.
I'm getting good AFRs under boost, but my off throttle decel is only going as high as 16...so I need to figure out what is up with that. |
OK, update on the WBO2 issues i've been having.
I re-calibrated yet again last night. I didn't really change much on the Zero Cal and Grade Cal (120 and 115). I was also looking through some of my older maps at various settings and saw that the autotune RPM range was 1500-7500 and the map i've been tinkering with was like 1500-3500, so I changed that back. I also noticed the setting for cutting fuel upon lifting off the throttle..and activated that setting. So I got a little data logging done on my way to work and was pleasantly surprised. On boost AFRs properly dropped to the low 11's and held steady at WOT. But the difference when I lifted off the throttle... AFRs jumped up to 20.5 within ~1-2 second, which tells me the WBO2 is now reading correctly...and that i'm saving a little bit more fuel while driving around Unfortunatly I was stil l getting a bit of breakup when rolling into WOT...but it smoothed out at high RPMs and one I shifted, the entire next run through the RPMs was smooth. This leads me to believe it's something with the spark plugs. Probably get some new ones, gap them to .032 and go from there. So for public record.. YES, the Bosch/NTK 13246 DOES wirk with Hydra 2.15 |
does it work with 2.5 and 2.6 too? think splicing to a gauge is possible? or would it change voltages or sensitivity. I've got 2.1 but waiting for 2.6
|
So does anyone know if 15401 works with 2.6, or only with 2.5?
|
I've been looking at the material referenced in this thread and did some cross-referencing. My findings:
oxygensensor.net says that the L2H2 is NTK 24300 and lists it at $189 wbo2.com says L2H2 is Bosch 13246 y8s experience is that Bosch 15401 will work with 2.5 If I go to NAPA USA and search with part numbers above, I get: Search Term / Result / Price 24300 / NGK 24300 / $404 13246 / BSH 13246 / $429 15401 / BSH 15401 / $149 If I go to NAPA Canada and repeat the above, I get (prices aren't listed on-line): Search Term / Result 24300 / nothing valid 13246 / NGK 24300 / $355CDN 15401 / NGK 24302 / $218CDN NGK 24302 is listed at oxygensensor.net at $119 At Autozone: Search Term / Result 24300 / nothing valid 13246 / BSH 13246 / $318 15401 / BSH 15401 / $149 |
Added NAPA Canada pricing.
|
Originally Posted by schmoo
(Post 737476)
So does anyone know if 15401 works with 2.6, or only with 2.5?
24300 / L1H1 / L2H2 / 13246 & several other numbers from Honda, Bosch, NTK & third party suppliers like SMP, etc is the 4mA pump cell sensor. Any minor variation in sleeving, harness length or connector type will result in a different part number from the same supplier. These are all made by NTK and NTK only, all other suppliers just put this in their own box. 24302 / LZA08-H6 & several other numbers from Honda, Bosch, NTK & third party suppliers like SMP, etc is the 3mA pump cell sensor. Any minor variation in sleeving, harness length or connector type will result in a different part number from the same supplier. These are all made by NTK and NTK only, all other suppliers just put this in their own box. The ability to use one sensor or another depends on the current sense resistor on the board design and whether a controller is using the cal resistor and has all cal values pre-programmed in the unit OR does a free air calibration procedure, which periodically needs to be repeated due to sensor aging, which requires the pump cell curves for various sensors to be pre-programmed in the unit. The Hydra chooses the free air calibration method and appears to be designed around the 4mA sensor. If you use the 3mA sensor, the calibration curve is NOT identical to the 4ma calibration curve. Depending on the current sense resistor Hydra chose, the 3mA sensor may or may not be able to reach a free air calibration point. If it does, the result will be misleading because the non-linear pump cell amperage curve will most likely result in an increasing offset towards lower lambda values. These sensors determine Lambda by evaluating the current passing across the pump cell circuit in a relatively elaborate control circuit where the measurement cell is kept at a constant .45v and the heater circuit is modulated to maintain temperature. These sensors are temperature and pressure dependent so different installation locations may have different results. To make this shorter and simpler, even if a 3mA sensor passes calibration, the values may be wrong. The difference will be most severe towards lower (richer) lambda values. I recommend you only use the 4mA sensor which is typically $250 or higher in all variations. To clarify further, it appears that all Hydra revisions use the 4mA version so it doesn't matter if you are running version 2.x or 2.y, you need the 4mA pump cell sensor type. Personally, I have the Hydra sensor installed in the post-turbo location on my MSM. I have an NGK Powerdex AFX (about the same price as a Hydra sensor) installed which has a sensor located in an FM pipe just before the CAT. This sensor location is too far back and straight vertical which results in some issues. The Powerdex AFX can use the 3mA pump cell sensor or a Bosch LSU 4.2 sensor, both of which are less expensive. A better install location would be a few inches from the turbo outlet in the downpipe slightly off vertical such that condensate can drain off the sensor rather than collecting on it's tip as happens in a vertical installation. |
Originally Posted by y8s
(Post 389896)
I'm stilll curious about that super cheap one I linked to. it had the right honda P/N...
Interesting that GV Autosport and a few other websites with the correct Honda PN (incorrectly applied) stole a description I wrote for the 24302 verbatim before correcting some of the information from ~2008.
Originally Posted by Doppelgänger
(Post 394084)
So for public record.. YES, the Bosch/NTK 13246 DOES wirk with Hydra 2.15
http://www.bmotorsports.com/2009/12/...dation-charts/ |
Great info, vtjballeng. Thanks very much.
How did you come to know these intimate details? |
Originally Posted by schmoo
(Post 747969)
Great info, vtjballeng. Thanks very much.
How did you come to know these intimate details? At my company, I sell and deal with these sensors daily. We also do engineering & design work around these sensor and automotive/industrial/agricultural/military controls work. |
Sorry to bump this again.... but here we go.
I've got a dead wideband, using Hydra 2.5. I just want to clarify before i go on my goose chase, that Bosch 15401 IS a correct sensor that will calibrate and read correctly with the Hydra. I guess ergo... that it IS a 4ma sensor. Thanks in advance! Also: Anyone have the part number for the Hydra proprietary replacement? |
Originally Posted by concealer404
(Post 770383)
Sorry to bump this again.... but here we go.
I've got a dead wideband, using Hydra 2.5. I just want to clarify before i go on my goose chase, that Bosch 15401 IS a correct sensor that will calibrate and read correctly with the Hydra. I guess ergo... that it IS a 4ma sensor. Thanks in advance! Also: Anyone have the part number for the Hydra proprietary replacement? NTK 24300 or Bosch 13246 is a 4ma sensor per my prior post. There is no NTK/Bosch pn for the Hydra proprietary version as they just take an NTK sensor and put their connector in it. My Hydra came with a 5 way Delphi Metripack connector but the older ones came with Weatherpack connectors. |
Originally Posted by vtjballeng
(Post 770405)
Bosch 15401 is NOT the correct sensor and is NOT a 4ma sensor.
NTK 24300 or Bosch 13246 is a 4ma sensor per my prior post. There is no NTK/Bosch pn for the Hydra proprietary version as they just take an NTK sensor and put their connector in it. My Hydra came with a 5 way Delphi Metripack connector but the older ones came with Weatherpack connectors. Is there a Hydra part number for their proprietary beast? I don't see anything listed on FM's website for it. :( Hrmmm.... $205 shipped for NTK 24300. :) Not too shabby! |
Here is everything I've learned while researching the Wideband Oxygen Sensor (WBO2) for the Hydra Nemesis ECU, firmware versions 2.5 - 2.7:
FM sells a replacement oxygen sensor for the Hydra for $250. They sell a cheaper sensor but it's for a different AFR meter and is not compatible with the Hydra. They also sell a sensor with a Hydra "unlock code" for Long Term Trim on the Hydra Nemesis 2.7 firmware for a total cost of $450. So I called NGK/NTK Tech Support and gave them the following information: The Flyin' Miata sensor has the following stamped on the body: "LHA:LZA08-H4 NTK JAPAN 6YN6" (the last part is just the manufacturing lot code stamped on the nut). The end of the sensor is a metal can with one hole in the end, and six holes around the circumference. It is a 5-wire sensor with a 6-pin WeatherPack WPT-6 connector which says "2 P.E.D." on the side. The pin-out is: A = gray (VS reference +) B = white (IP power +) C = yellow (heater ground -) D = black (IP & VS cell ground -) E = blue (heater power +) F = no connection (I looked inside the connector body and there are no jumpers.) NGK/NTK Tech Support looked it up in their files, and told me: -------------------------------------------------------------- * This sensor is a NTK stock # 24302 and has a 136ms response time, which is one of the fastest-response units they make. * The only 'catch' is that in some cases the reseller (Flyin' Miata, in this case) add their own custom connector or jumper, then charge an additional fee for the sensor. This sensor comes from the factory with a connector designed for most Honda / Acura V6 VTEC SOHC engines (3.0 - 3.5L made from 2003-2008). * This unit is available from most car-parts stores for about $180, but might be special order. (In fact, I called NAPA and they had one in a local warehouse, and got it to me the same day for $150 + tax.) * 5-wire sensors are designed for maximum accuracy and response times, compared to cheaper 4-wire sensors. They are often labeled "laboratory grade". * Some 5-wire sensors don't require a free-air calibration because they have some method of auto-calibrating. This sensor is not that fancy; it DOES require a free-air calibration. NTK recommends a minimum of 30-45 minutes of free-air calibration, but longer calibration time is better. * NTK owns exclusive rights to 5-wire oxygen sensors, but only manufactures about 40% of them, and they contract with Bosch and others to make the rest. (Later I called Bosch tech support and found that their equivalent part number is Bosch 15401.) * Each sensor model includes a custom ASIC chip to give it proprietary calibration values, so it is not possible to simply swap out a sensor with a sensor from another brand. There are no cross-reference tables like there are for spark plugs. * Using the wrong sensor can actually fry your ECU. Don't make a very expensive mistake! * Leaded fuel (some types of racing fuel) will kill the sensor. * Running rich (like under WOT) can shorten sensor life. * This particular sensor was designed for GM engines. Although it might last 100,000 miles for that use, two years and 25,000 miles isn't unusual for an aftermarket turbo kit. * NTK also sells a PowerDex AFX wideband monitoring and datalogging kit for $280, for people who don't have a Hydra ECU (or similar). * Be cautious about buying sensors online; even if you get exactly the part you expected, warranty service is provided through the reseller, not through NGK/NTK. So you might be out of luck if you have any problems with the sensor. * Regarding the life of the sensor: NGK/NTK Tech Support said it's hard to say how long these sensors will last; in a OEM application they might last 100,000 miles; but my experience of two years and 25,000 miles seems about right for an aftermarket setup. Several turbo-Miata Hydra owners have told me of similar experiences. * No NOT use the 24300, it is NOT the same, the internal circuitry is very different. Also, here are some questions I asked, along with NTK's response: ----------------------------------------------------------------- Q: What does the "-H4" on the part number mean? I ask because I see that your stock # 24302 crosses to an LZA-08-H6 at this website: http://www.oxygensensor.net/ntk_o2/24302.php A: The -H4 not critical; it's a code stamped for OEM applications (in this case Honda and GM) that tell you the harness length and connector style. (So an -H6 or -HE4 or -HA4 suffix should still use the same sensor body.) The exact definition of the -H4 would need to be answered by a OEM O2 engineer back in the office in Michigan. Most people on the aftermarket are not worried about things like this as they are replacing OEM parts with OEM parts. Q: I've read some discussions in the forums about whether Hydra needs a sensor with a 3mA or 4mA pump cell. What's the difference, and will the wrong one damage my Hydra or just not sense correctly? A: The current rating of the pumping cell is directly correlated to the stamping number on the sensor. There is no need to worry about the pumping cell in the sensor body, if the stamping number directly matches our number there is no reason to worry about the amperage of the pumping cell. Q: I thought you said that Bosch and NTK sensors were made differently and wouldn't cross-reference each other, but the OxygenSensor.net website above says they do. What's going on? A: NTK and other competitors patent 5 wire sensors, this one may have close similarities, or may actually be the same as one of our sensors as we used this variant in our wideband logging system and supplied the Bosch early in the sale, and switched to supplying the NTK. I would be curious to know where oxygensensor.net got their information. We get ours from our engineering department and this is done in the engineering process with many OEM suppliers, this is the most accurate data you will ever get. The bottom line here is that if the stamping number directly crosses then it’s the same sensor body and internal construction. At this point we just need to verify the wiring on the connector. Q: You said that each sensor model includes a custom ASIC chip to give it proprietary calibration values, so it is not possible to simply swap out a sensor with a sensor from another brand. There are no cross-reference tables like there are for spark plugs. Is that correct? A: Yes, the Asic chip is preprogrammed with the calibration values. NGK Spark Plugs ( USA) Inc. Aftermarket Division 46929 Magellan Drive Wixom, MI 48393 I found this tidbit on the NTK website's FAQ's: "Most [oxygen] sensors slowly degrade in performance and send a false rich signal to the ECU, running the engine too lean." That would sure match my symptoms of light pinging under moderate- to heavy-acceleration between 2200-2900 RPM. It turns out that if you do a Google search for "ntk 24302 hydra" you'll find several threads about replacing the FM sensor with this one. They talk about putting a new connector on the cable from the Hydra, so swapping out sensors becomes an easy plug-n-play solution. Some other possibly useful pages are below, although the information provided is possibly old or inaccurate: http://boschautoparts.com/FAQs/Pages...Oxygen+Sensors http://www.mazda-speed.com/forum2/in...c,19513.0.html http://www.techedge.com.au/vehicle/wbo2/wbntk.htm http://forum.miata.net/vb/showthread.php?t=239491 (Look for klatinn's post near the bottom.) I've seen some claims that others have successfully used an $80 sensor; that doesn't mean it's accurate or fast enough for all conditions, but maybe it's good enough for most situations. I don't really know. John Dollison '99 Mazda Miata FM-II turbo kit with Hydra Nemesis ECU ver. 2.6. |
John,
Good work researching these issues. There are some issues here which are a little confusing in my view. I am not going to comment on everything but only choose to comment on a few points.
Originally Posted by John Dollison
(Post 793921)
* 5-wire sensors are designed for maximum accuracy and response times, compared to cheaper 4-wire sensors. They are often labeled "laboratory grade".
Originally Posted by John Dollison
(Post 793921)
* Some 5-wire sensors don't require a free-air calibration because they have some method of auto-calibrating. This sensor is not that fancy; it DOES require a free-air calibration. NTK recommends a minimum of 30-45 minutes of free-air calibration, but longer calibration time is better.
Originally Posted by John Dollison
(Post 793921)
* Each sensor model includes a custom ASIC chip to give it proprietary calibration values, so it is not possible to simply swap out a sensor with a sensor from another brand. There are no cross-reference tables like there are for spark plugs.
Originally Posted by John Dollison
(Post 793921)
* Using the wrong sensor can actually fry your ECU. Don't make a very expensive mistake!
Originally Posted by John Dollison
(Post 793921)
* Leaded fuel (some types of racing fuel) will kill the sensor.
* Running rich (like under WOT) can shorten sensor life.
Originally Posted by John Dollison
(Post 793921)
* NTK also sells a PowerDex AFX wideband monitoring and datalogging kit for $280, for people who don't have a Hydra ECU (or similar).
Originally Posted by John Dollison
(Post 793921)
* Be cautious about buying sensors online; even if you get exactly the part you expected, warranty service is provided through the reseller, not through NGK/NTK. So you might be out of luck if you have any problems with the sensor.
Originally Posted by John Dollison
(Post 793921)
* No NOT use the 24300, it is NOT the same, the internal circuitry is very different.
Q: I've read some discussions in the forums about whether Hydra needs a sensor with a 3mA or 4mA pump cell. What's the difference, and will the wrong one damage my Hydra or just not sense correctly? A: The current rating of the pumping cell is directly correlated to the stamping number on the sensor. There is no need to worry about the pumping cell in the sensor body, if the stamping number directly matches our number there is no reason to worry about the amperage of the pumping cell. So now the question is, where did your LZA08 sensor come from and how did it make it in the mix here? When did you purchase this sensor? Is Hydra now shipping with the 24302 sensor indicating a hardware and/or firmware change? Is FM mixing stock, thinking they can modify the 24302 sensors to work on 24300 applications? Has anyone else received a new Hydra with a sensor stamped with LZA08? Most systems using the 24300 cannot also drive the 24302 where many systems using the 24302 can also drive the 24300. |
I have a hydra 2.5 that I bought many years ago and the WBO2 that came with it is the NTK LZA08-H4 which based upon the above is the 24302. Clearly my Hydra was purchased before vtjballeng's (which it is indicated was purchased earlier this year) thus maybe the Hydra 2.6/2.7 are using a different WBO2? Or perhaps Hydra and/or FM actually are mixing up stock?
This for sale thread is also interesting, since it is a Hydra 2.6 WBO2 from FM that doesn't even have the proper connector: https://www.miataturbo.net/miata-parts-sale-trade-5/hydra-2-6-wb02-sensor-brand-new-61919/ That is odd. |
This is probably unrelated but this guy had his WBO2 die after upgrading from 2.5 to 2.6: https://www.miataturbo.net/showpost....79&postcount=2
It was claimed to be a defective part in the 2.6 upgrade. But in the interest of creating a conspiracy out of nothing, maybe they did change their WBO2 circuitry and thus the WBO2 that is supported? |
Originally Posted by VanMSM
(Post 806779)
I have a hydra 2.5 that I bought many years ago and the WBO2 that came with it is the NTK LZA08-H4 which based upon the above is the 24302. Clearly my Hydra was purchased before vtjballeng's (which it is indicated was purchased earlier this year) thus maybe the Hydra 2.6/2.7 are using a different WBO2? Or perhaps Hydra and/or FM actually are mixing up stock?
This for sale thread is also interesting, since it is a Hydra 2.6 WBO2 from FM that doesn't even have the proper connector: https://www.miataturbo.net/showthread.php?t=61919 That is odd. |
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