Damn I was just in Orlando Monday.

If I bought a guitar like that it would be to hang up on the wall and not play. If I wanted a shred guitar there are other vastly superior and cheaper guitars out there. Guy realized he paid too much / sounds like this isn't his first time.

And it still amazes me he complained about a wiring problem on that thing. The wiring is so simple in that I could wire it up with my eyes closed.

My Kramer:
http://i48.tinypic.com/n2ld0m.jpg

Also, if he doesn't provide the name of the shop so you can talk to them yourself then what proof do you have or does he have that the condition is as bad as he says it is. You really should get him to take it elsewhere ( reputable shop ) for a second opinion. But really I think it's beside the point. He already made the buy on a completely clear and honest ad, you did not mislead him and he could have asked these questions prior to buying and did not. Still his fault. 45 day refund period is shit. What if you could buy a car, drive the piss out of it and slam on miles for 45 days then return it for a full refund. bullshit.

Wow...super sucky. I had missed the outcome of this thread thinking it was still about old guitars I couldn't afford.

Sounds like buyer's remorse. I recently had a very similar situation (documented in 1337), but luckily for much less dough.

Don't offer anything.

The "what you think is fair" ploy is an obvious bargaining tool to open the door to a bigger refund. Every time you think you reach a "fair" resolution, this type of buyer will ask for more. My guy turned down 3 (yes...three) decent offers. He was also complaining about condition, which he could have easily asked about beforehand.

Something about a fool and his money....

Anyhow, the more you stand your ground the better off you are. It seems like a good idea to cough up a portion of the deal and get this guy to go away...and that's what he's hoping for. Every week seller before use has fed these guys, and that's why they keep milking the system. If your conscience is clear you shouldn't budge a bit. It's principle...which is worth more than cash.

eBay/PayPal may make you hand some over...but that's their call..and they're often fair despite the way PP holds funds until it's over. Even if you lose you know you were in the right.

I would POUND on the fact he hasn't provided the name of the shop he took it to. Their assessment of the damage will be pivotal. Hell...he should be able to provide some kind of receipt or estimate. The whole ordeal sounds NOTHING like what should go on when dropping that kind of coin on a guitar. If that happened to me I wouldn't hesitate to email a scan of documentation from my local music shop when demanding a refund.

He may just be holding out...but it sounds fishy to me.

Don't back down.

Quick reply.

Amongst all this bullshit I lost it and started beating the punching bag, turned around and headbutted the shit out of the door. I fucking hit it so hard it threw me backwards and I almost fell. Cracked the son of a bitch 3/4 of the way down. Now my fucking neck hurts. Perfect. :vash:

Back to writing a reply to this fucking guy.

hmm.

i know this sucks and all, but you may need one of these:

http://webspace.webring.com/people/j...chill_pill.jpg

I agree. Thus why I'm about to hit the bong.

Trying to sit here and write something without being a dick is super hard. I could strangle this fucking guy right now, but I cant let it come out in words.

Imagine yourself in my shoes. Paypal is only going to wait so long before they pull money from my bank account to bring my paypal back to $0. If they pull it from my bank accounts......I'm fucked BIGTIME. I don't have that kind of money just sitting around. My brother is being difficult with me about temporarily giving me the money to make my account good again. That's when my head hit the door.

In any case I finished my reply, what do you guys think?

"As far as the accusations about the damage, we had no knowledge of any issues with the guitar. When I shipped it to you it was missing the covers from the back, as stated in the auction. Again, right now these are only accusations. Until I can have the name of the shop you took it to and speak with someone about the damage, it’s only your word. And to clarify, the $20 I was going to send you through PayPal was offered to fix a possible loose solder in the wiring during shipment.

The auction clearly stated what the guitar was, the serial number, plenty of pictures, my return policy, etc. Like I said before, it was listed auction style and started at $1. The reserve was the least amount my brother wanted for it and I never put a price tag on this guitar saying it was a $3600 vintage guitar. It was bid up that high, listed as it was, and you were the winner. Whether your expectations for a almost 30 year old guitar were too high, or whatever the case may be, the guitar was simply listed as “good used condition”

The guitar you received was EXACTLY as described. The request for a $1500 refund holds no merit seeing that you still have yet to give me the name of the shop you took it to with no estimate documentation. I will not refund any money just on hearsay. But all of this is beside the point. The auction ended with a winner, you. You got exactly what I described in the auction safe and sound. I packed the guitar perfectly and insured it for $400 more than it’s worth. I still feel very strongly that I did not sell this guitar to you under the “item not as described” category. That would be false. Tell me where in the auction the guitar was “not as described”."

i think its firm and to the point, without coming off as a huge dick.

I wouldn't even mention the reserve. It just brings up again that he paid way over what the seller was willing to let it go for. Drop that line and hit SEND.

If you already sent it, it's not the end of the world.

Good job being civil. When I was in your shoes that was the hardest part...wanting to tell the guy he sucks at life and to fuck off, and keeping in mind that the communication may later be used in a PP case.

In the end it always pays to keep a cool head.

Closed that bank account linked to your PayPal and open up another one at another bank and tell him to F off! That way he won't get a dime from you.

Aside from the reserve line, perfect.

Thanks man. Yeah its hard to keep cool. Hence, me headbutting the door. :laugh: I just get super angry when I have to pussyfoot around on the computer like this. Not to mention I hate sitting at the computer. Today was just pure aggravation. BTW man I'm working on that audio writeup. Sorry I haven't posted anything on it yet. Soon I promise! :bigtu:

This is the revised version. I just sent it.

"As far as your claims about the damage go, we had no knowledge of any issues with the guitar. Right now, these are only accusations. The request for a $1500 refund holds no merit seeing that you still have yet to give me the name of the shop you took it to, as well as estimate documentation. I will not refund any money just on hearsay. Until I can have that information, and speak with someone about the damage, it's only your word. To clarify, the $20 partial refund was offered specifically for re-soldering a wire to the volume pot. The cover is missing from the volume control wiring, so it's understandable that the solder might have degraded over time.

The auction clearly stated what the guitar was, the serial number, plenty of pictures, my return policy, etc. I also stated in the auction that if anyone had questions or a request for more pictures to feel free to contact me. Like I said before, it was listed auction style. I never put a price tag on this guitar saying it was a $3600, vintage guitar. I started it at $1 and it was bid up that high, listed as it was, and you were the winner.

You are making the claim that the "item is not as described". That's a strong statement. The guitar you received was exactly as described. I would appreciate if you could explain specifically what you are claiming was misrepresented in the auction. My brother, the original owner, considered the guitar in good condition, and would not have sold an unplayable guitar. It may be that your expectations regarding the playability of an almost 30 year old guitar are unrealistic. You got exactly what I described in the auction. The guitar was listed as in 'good used condition'. I stand by that statement."

This was his response to my last message.

"How can we come to an agreement? I want to resolve this with you as fast as possible."

He ignored everything I wrote.....so I ignored him.

Then today I get this message along with another request for a refund, this time $1000.

"I am taking a hit and lowering my partial refund amount so that we can put this to bed. I am asking for this refund due to the twisted neck on the guitar which dimishes its value and cannot FULLY be repaired, nor replaced due to rarity. Please let me know-"

I don't get this fucking guy! :vash:

Does he really think I'm going to refund him a dime on his word? Show me the MOTHER FUCKING ESTIMATE!!!!!

All the worst scammers are this way...they want to see if they can outlast you.

Don't let him eat up your patience and cool. You're in the right....hold your line, and don't let it get to you.

Keep replying in a clear, concise manner which communicates your main points and nothing else. He will keep going off topic, and throwing in things like "taking a hit" which will look worse in a dispute.

Also, the ballpark numbers he is playing around with prove even more he's a bullshitter. If he was really trying to work it out, he would not only provide the estimate, but would base the refund on a percentage of that...eg: "I'll cover 40% of the repairs, bringing your refund amount to $992.87."

I'm not siding with the guy at all. However he isn't asking for a refund to repair the guitar, since he very clearly stated that the twisted neck can not be repaired nor replaced due to the rarity of the guitar. He wants the $$$ to cover the diminished value.

So asking for an estimate on what it costs to repair the guitar is foolish and makes it look like you can't read. If you have no plan to pay him what he's asking or getting into a negotiation with him, why ask him for proof of the twisted neck. You aren't debating that it is twisted, your stance is that it was solid as advertised and that you didn't misrepresent it. It would be a different story if you advertised the guitar as mint condition with a guaranteed straight neck. But since you didn't, don't even get sucked in. Assume that what he is telling you is true, but disregard it because it has nothing to do with the transaction you made. If he was that concerned about condition of the guitar, he shouldn't have bought it sight unseen.

Or pay the guy his $1000 and move on with your life.

Very true.

I was asking for the estimate solely for the proof that there is in fact something wrong with it. Taking his word on the claim that there is something wrong would be stupid on part.

If he came back with a legit estimate that said it was damaged, I would grant a partial $500 refund, that's it. But without any proof.....I refuse to give him anything.

I wonder if when I write back to him, if I should include in the message that I've spoken with Paypal directly about the situation, and that I still feel strongly that the item was exactly as described, and that's all there is to it.

I want this done with ASAP, but I don't feel like giving him money back is proper way to handle this.

Does anyone think it would be a bad idea for me to use the words "buyer's remorse" in my response. I really don't want to come off like an asshole, but I feel like I need to say it.

Definitely not. Don't rub his nose in it or he may become more beligerent. Keep it cal, cool, to the facts. Reiterate your position so that every message has the same theme that you are presenting facts and he is just talking without having to say it.

Change of plans. :)

I decided to get some ammo for my fight, so I called our local guitar shop and spoke with the master luthier, Barry Lipman. He has 34 years experience and is a top rated luthier by Martin and Taylor guitars. He has an awesome reputation and just so happens to know my gf's father, so I gave him a call.

He said its common for older guitars to have a dip in the neck and its not a big deal at all. And that it actually doesn't decrease the value that much, it just means it was played. And that to have the neck serviced with a re-fret it would usually cost about $300. He said even if the guy took it to the top dollar luthier down in Manhattan it wouldn't be over $500.

So now I will counter with the new info I have and I wont feel like I have NO idea what I'm talking about. Barry told me next time I sell a guitar to take it to him and have it certified for $25, this way I'll be covered.

This is the shop thats down the road from me - .:::Eastcoast Music Mall:::. Electric guitars and amps, bass guitars, musical instruments and pro audio recording equipment - Eastcoast Music Mall, 15 Starr Rd, Danbury, CT 800-901-2001

I just sent my reply. Lets see what the fuck he comes up with now. :vash:

"I still stand by my statement that the guitar you received was exactly as described. Therefore, I am denying this partial refund as well.

I have spoken with PayPal and eBay multiple times regarding this issue and had them review the auction, as well as contact my local guitar shop. I spoke with Barry Whitman who is a top rated, master luthier, with 34 years experience, and is highly recommended by Martin and Taylor guitars.

I explained the accusations about the neck, and he proceeded to tell me that it is very common for older guitars to have a dip in the neck. He also said that it’s usually not a big deal and that the neck can be scraped and sanded with a re-fret for $300.

He also explained to me that the issues with the neck does not decrease the value of the guitar in any way, that it just means it was played and worn over time. Thus, this is something you can expect from a 27 year old guitar that has been played over the course of its life."

After writing what's posted above I got another refund request. For $300!!!! :laugh:

He went from full refund or $1500, to $1000, now to $300. What do I do? Say fuck it and let the poor bitch have $300 back.....or keep standing my ground and say no refund? lol

This is like a fucking joke! :bowrofl: