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Old 11-01-2012, 12:32 PM   #21
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Unless he were to explicitly spell out the danger before he sold it then I would still say it is at the very least highly unethical, if not borderline negligence. We all know the average car buyer does not come close to understanding how crumple zones and crash supports work. They will not fully understand the damage until they actually wreck it.
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Old 11-01-2012, 12:34 PM   #22
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it's not my job to educate a buyer about crash zones; i know nothing of them. It would be unethical of me to try to explain them to a potential buyer.

If someone were to buy the car, and die from the car being crumpled, all the fault would go to the insurance company who determined the car safe for the road. As like you said: "the average car buyer does not come close to understanding how crumple zones and crash supports work."
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Old 11-01-2012, 12:41 PM   #23
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I am not saying to break it down into explicit detail. I was thinking of something along the lines of, "This has been in a rear-end collision and the crumple zone has been compromised. In the event of another rear-end collision the chances of it's complete failure and serious injury has significantly increased."

It wouldn't have to sound so formal but some kind of statement to disclose that the damage is more than superficial. It may not be illegal for you to not explain this but it is highly unethical for you to do so, which is all I am saying.
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Old 11-01-2012, 12:43 PM   #24
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Quote:
"This has been in a rear-end collision and the crumple zone has been compromised. In the event of another rear-end collision the chances of it's complete failure and serious injury has significantly increased."
this would be a lie. who's unethical now?

when i sell my car, here's what I'm going to tell a potential buyer about the car being rear ended three times:

Quote:
...
if the buyer is smart enough to pull a carfax, and asks, "why was there three accident reports on your car?"

I will respond with:

Quote:
the car was rear ended three times. I had it fixed.


Im sorry I dont follow your Kantian way of life.
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Old 11-01-2012, 12:47 PM   #25
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How would that be a lie? One of the crash supports is clearly broken. The crumple zone is already partly crumpled and weakened. It has clearly been compromised and any mechanic would tell you the same thing. I said the chance of serious injury and complete failure are significantly higher not certain to occur.
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Old 11-01-2012, 01:00 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Braineack View Post
The car was rear-ended three times. I had it fixed.
That would imply to almost anyone that you completely fixed the car. I understand the statement you gave is vague and leaves room for interpretation which is why it would not be an illegal action. It would, however, still be highly unethical as you are being intentionally vague as to avoid disclosing the entirety of the situation unless explicitly asked the right question. You are doing this to make the car easier to sell. You can try to justify this in whatever way you see fit, but it is what it is.

I am not telling you to live a certain way or even ethically. I am just calling it like I see it.
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Old 11-01-2012, 01:07 PM   #27
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This is also a funny argument coming from a mod of this forum. Full disclosure is a huge part of our for sale section here and I have seen sellers get shunned and even banned from the forum for doing similar **** to what you are talking about.
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Old 11-01-2012, 01:08 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan_G View Post
How would that be a lie? One of the crash supports is clearly broken. The crumple zone is already partly crumpled and weakened. It has clearly been compromised and any mechanic would tell you the same thing. I said the chance of serious injury and complete failure are significantly higher not certain to occur.

Because pxdeta is not an expert in crash zones and supports. Telling anyone that they are compromised would be a lie, even if it happened to be true. That's like saying "Global Warming caused Sandy." Is it possible global warming caused Sandy? Sure it's possible. Do you actually know? No.

Here's all he could tell a potential buyer:

Quote:
The crash bar behind the bumper is broken in half and put some pretty good sized ripples through the bottom of the trunk and a crease in the passenger side of the body. [I did this this and this afterwards...]
If he tells someone this, and only this, then it's completely ethical.

It's up to the buyer to determine whether or not it's worth the risk and they price will lowered significantly and negotiated due to the damage and both parties will come to the voluntary choice and agreement of a $$$ for the car.
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Old 11-01-2012, 01:09 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryan_G View Post
This is also a funny argument coming from a mod of this forum. Full disclosure is a huge part of our for sale section here and I have seen sellers get shunned and even banned from the forum for doing similar **** to what you are talking about.
I have an oblogation as the admin of the forum to try to protect the members here. This gives the buyers some sort of confidence when using the FS section here and provides a sense of community and civility. The sellers, on the otherhand, have no obligations to protect the members here, only themselves.

It's always buyers beware regardless.
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Old 11-01-2012, 01:22 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Braineack View Post
Because pxdeta is not an expert in crash zones and supports. Telling anyone that they are compromised would be a lie, even if it happened to be true. That's like saying "Global Warming caused Sandy." Is it possible global warming caused Sandy? Sure it's possible. Do you actually know? No. .
This approach would be more effective from a legal standpoint. It is not really relevant for an ethical debate as intentions and resulting consequences of actions have more to do with ethics than the actions taken themselves. Although he is not an expert mechanic offering an opinion that may be overly conservative with the intention to make the buyer aware would not be unethical. All that would do would reduce the chance of selling the car at a higher price or at all on the chance that the crash zone is not in fact compromised.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Braineack View Post
Here's all he could tell a potential buyer:



If he tells someone this, and only this, then it's completely ethical.

The crash bar behind the bumper is broken in half and put some pretty good sized ripples through the bottom of the trunk and a crease in the passenger side of the body. [I did this this and this afterwards...]

It's up to the buyer to determine whether or not it's worth the risk and they price will lowered significantly and negotiated due to the damage and both parties will come to the voluntary choice and agreement of a $$$ for the car.
That statement would be completely ok with me. I wasn't caught up so much on the specifics as much as not cosmetically covering the real damage without taking any steps to inform the potential buyer that it exists unless they explicitly ask.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Braineack View Post
I have an oblogation as the admin of the forum to try to protect the members here. The sellers dont. It's always buyers beware.
Touche on your responsibility here. I am all for buyer beware from a legal standpoint. From and ethical standpoint I feel that a seller should be as forthcoming as possible with all relevant information.
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Old 11-01-2012, 01:39 PM   #31
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I also just like to say stupid things and argue about nothings online when im bored.
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Old 11-01-2012, 02:43 PM   #32
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Funny story, when I told the adjuster I'd probably just take the money and sell the car as is, he expressed interest in personally purchasing the car. He gave me his cell number so I can call him when the title arrives from the DMV (since I just purchased the car a few weeks ago). That would pretty much resolve an ethics debate wouldn't it?

If the car is sold to another party it won't be difficult to figure out the car has been in an accident that wasn't properly repaired (it was obvious to me when I purchased the car that it had already been wrecked and would be even more noticible now). I'm really not sure what I'll end up doing with it, just keeping it and pissing away the 4 grand on miata parts seems like a pretty good idea.
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Old 11-01-2012, 02:44 PM   #33
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Old 11-01-2012, 02:53 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pdexta View Post
Funny story, when I told the adjuster I'd probably just take the money and sell the car as is, he expressed interest in personally purchasing the car. He gave me his cell number so I can call him when the title arrives from the DMV (since I just purchased the car a few weeks ago). That would pretty much resolve an ethics debate wouldn't it?
I had three people express they wanted to buy my prelude when the transmission died. One was the tow driver who gave me his number.

I called him a two days later, once i bought a new car, and asked him if he wanted to buy it. He was very happy and said he wanted it, and asked how much. When I told him $2000, he then asked, did I fix it. I laughed and said: No, that's why I'm selling it, you can come tow it.

He didn't like that and offered $700.

I sold it within 24 hours of posting online for $1700.
Aside: Another guy was someone I contacted off CL for some stock parts for the replacement prelude I bought the next day, it had a cold air intake on it when I bought it, and I wanted to put the stock airbox on it. His car was beat to hell and just wanted to swap his engine and trans into it, but he didn't like my price either...suffice to say, like I said, I sold it for a price I was very happy with the next afternoon.
True stories:





Me and my wife hanging out in our own lane on Independence Ave, in DC, at 4:00pm just as rush hour is about it hit

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Old 11-01-2012, 06:25 PM   #35
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Which car's wheels were backwards?
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Old 11-01-2012, 06:58 PM   #36
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light blue. i like the blades to point "back"
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Old 11-01-2012, 07:56 PM   #37
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How tall is Mrs. Brain?
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Old 11-02-2012, 06:02 PM   #38
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5'10 why do you ask?
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Old 11-02-2012, 06:10 PM   #39
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Total it and buy another miata.
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Old 11-04-2012, 09:45 AM   #40
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Quote:
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5'10 why do you ask?
She just looked tall next to that fence. My wife's 5'4".
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