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Old 08-25-2009, 02:50 PM   #121
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Solent Green is people.
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Old 08-25-2009, 03:08 PM   #122
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Can we kill 'em? No, that'd probably result in somebody invading our country and liberating us from our corrupt government (and then occupying us for a long time).

Can we force 'em to become elevated? Ever try to teach Latin to a pig? It accomplishes nothing, and annoys the pig.

Shame there's no big, empty, unsettled island in the southern hemisphere where we can just ship 'em off to. Damn British used that one up...
Killing or shipping them off is the same tyrranical behavior that was responsible for the declaration of independence...

forcing a class to be stupid and sick is still a form of oppression.
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Old 08-25-2009, 03:40 PM   #123
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forcing a class to be stupid and sick is still a form of oppression.
How about letting them decide to be stupid and sick? Wait, that won't work because we are doing that already and some people just can't stomach it when people choose to be fat and stupid. Just because people make bad decisions doesn't mean you can take my money away to go help them. For one thing, it doesn't teach them a damn thing other than if you act stupid people will steal money from people who behaved responsibly and give it to you.
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Old 08-25-2009, 03:53 PM   #124
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I blame "rap." I blame this music video:

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Old 08-25-2009, 04:38 PM   #125
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Killing or shipping them off is the same tyrranical behavior that was responsible for the declaration of independence...

forcing a class to be stupid and sick is still a form of oppression.
Who is forcing anybody to be stupid and sick? I'm trying to think of ways to force a class of people to become educated and healthy, and nothing's coming to mind.

Regardless of whatever social injustices (real or perceived) any given class / group of people might suffer, there are already a couple of easy "ways out" which everybody knows about, yet are not being taken advantage of.


1: Public education, regardless of what you believe of its quality or effectiveness, is free for the taking for everyone. At most schools, they'll even feed you two free, nutritionally-balanced meals a day if you can't afford to pay. And yet the H.S. attendance and graduation rates are lowest amongst the poorest classes.


2: The armed forces will give you free room & board, a free vocational education, a steady paycheck, teach you a thing or two about working as a team, and provide a "clean break" from your past, opening opportunities either for a service career or to enter the workforce as an essentially new person with an honorable discharge after your enlistment is completed. A few take this route, but not many.


So you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink. Eventually, you gotta shoot the horse.
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Old 08-25-2009, 04:57 PM   #126
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How do you both feel about mandatory armed forces service for, say, a year or two? too much russia?
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Old 08-25-2009, 05:12 PM   #127
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matt you know how lazy i am....you really think I'd be okay with that?
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Old 08-25-2009, 05:13 PM   #128
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matt you know how lazy i am....you really think I'd be okay with that?
What if it made people less lazy? What if you were all "I'm gettin up at 7!!" and then "I'm gonna dig matt a foundation cuz I'm not lazy!"

or somethin.
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Old 08-25-2009, 05:17 PM   #129
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How do you both feel about mandatory armed forces service for, say, a year or two? too much russia?
In theory, yes, but we all know that it will still be biased against the "have nots" so it would never happen. Not to mention some "almost haves" that aren't rich enough to get out of it wouldn't be too keen on it either.

Some would stay in the service. Win.

Some would decide that they are never going back to a life like that and do whatever they have to (college, etc) to ensure that. Win.
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Old 08-25-2009, 05:17 PM   #130
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I'd help dig your foundation cause I like you and I like accomplishing something. I put more effort into Neo's car last weekend than I have in my own in a while.
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Old 08-25-2009, 05:28 PM   #131
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How do you both feel about mandatory armed forces service for, say, a year or two? too much russia?
Also too much Taiwan, Mexico, Austria, Switzerland, Denmark, Greece, Israel....
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Old 08-25-2009, 05:28 PM   #132
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Back to the health care thing -

Would you be able to sue the government-sponsored health care provider for eleventy billion dollars when little Johnny doesn't come out of surgery? I'm guessing not. Will you still be able to sue the public sector? If so, make that change now on the public sector provider and health care costs would drop quite a bit.
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Old 08-25-2009, 05:41 PM   #133
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Back to the health care thing -

Would you be able to sue the government-sponsored health care provider for eleventy billion dollars when little Johnny doesn't come out of surgery? I'm guessing not. Will you still be able to sue the public sector? If so, make that change now on the public sector provider and health care costs would drop quite a bit.
right now, isn't it on the doctor if you want to file a lawsuit (malpractice)?

I mean sure you could hire a lawyer to go after the big insurance companies, but he'd probably get lost in there and die in some forgotten filing room like every other person who answers to phone and goes to look for your file.
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Old 08-25-2009, 06:23 PM   #134
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Personally, I think the main downfall of mandatory armed force services is the lackluster morale and performance of conscripts.

I think for many people it would be beneficial, but would the overall quality of our armed forces decline?
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Old 08-25-2009, 06:26 PM   #135
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I think he's talking about the way that government healthcare programs conveniently take their bureaucratic time to approve little Johnny's care. Long enough for him to die so they don't have to pay for the care. If a hospital delayed and didn't administer needed care they can be sued. If it's the government, like every other dealing with the government, if they screw up you are fucked with zero recourse.

Ever have the government lose important paperwork of yours? I have. You are fucked with zero recourse. Ever see that woman at the DMV with the really sympathetic look in her eyes? Yeah, me either.
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Old 08-25-2009, 09:48 PM   #136
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BLAME it on the weather or the silly-season absence of more serious news, but arguments about America’s health care have become a touch delirious over the past couple of weeks. People have accused each other of being evil-mongers, dealers in death or even un-American; a sad substitute for a thoughtful debate about a complicated subject that intimately affects every citizen and ties up some $2 trillion a year, a seventh of the world’s largest economy.

Now the distemper has spread across the Atlantic. The enemies of Barack Obama’s health-reform plans have no more potent weapon, it seems, than to accuse him of seeking to replicate Britain’s dreaded National Health Service on American soil. Even David Cameron has been dragged into the affair. An unhelpful Conservative MEP has been caught joining in the NHS-bashing in America, leading to the predictable and unfair charge that Mr Cameron’s henchmen are secretly bent on unravelling the system.


This focus on the NHS is unfortunate in a couple of serious ways. First, by painting an inaccurate picture of the British system, it helps blind Americans to weaknesses in their own one that need to be corrected if it is not to collapse under the weight of its costly inefficiencies. Americans have been fed, during the summer slanging, a diet of ludicrous untruths: that the astrophysicist Stephen Hawking, for instance, would have been abandoned to die of his motor neurone disease had he been unfortunate enough to live in Britain. (He does.) More dangerous was the remark of Charles Grassley that his fellow senator, 77-year-old Edward Kennedy, would not be treated for his brain cancer if he lived in Britain on account of his age. Mr Grassley, through his position on the most important of the Senate committees considering health reform, holds its fate in his hands.

It’s not so bad in Britain
The reality which these calumnies obscure is that the NHS costs half as much per person as the American system costs. Yet it delivers results which are on some plausible measures (see article) actually superior, for instance in terms of health in middle-age or life expectancy at birth (America’s record at treating cancers is much better, though). And it does this while avoiding the disgrace that so shames America, of leaving around 46m people, some 15% of its population, without any form of health insurance and therefore reliant on emergency-room care, which is costly and inefficient. Many millions more are covered by only bare-bones policies, which can leave them destitute in the event of prolonged illness. But if American politicians peddle falsehoods about what goes on in other countries, Americans are correspondingly less likely to appreciate the extent to which they are being let down.

The second thing to lament about the current apology for a debate is that it is giving the idea of controlling health-care costs a bad name. Mr Obama promised that his reform package would bring down costs, as well as extend coverage. But so spooked has the administration become by accusations of “rationing” health care, as is done in “socialist” systems like the NHS, that very little cost control is now to be expected from whatever bill eventually emerges (see article).

The reality is that America, like Britain, already makes extensive use of rationing. Around half of all Americans are covered by one government programme or another, including those providing health-insurance for the elderly, the poor and government employees. These schemes lay down in great detail, in the form of national and local “coverage determinations”, which treatments and procedures can be claimed for, and at what rates. And all but the most expensive private insurance policies impose limitations of their own. A more honest discussion would accept that cutting costs, as the administration has promised to do, must involve reining in a system that encourages patients to demand tests and procedures that they don’t really need and doctors to recommend them.
Pulled this from this weeks Economist.

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I think he's talking about the way that government healthcare programs conveniently take their bureaucratic time to approve little Johnny's care. Long enough for him to die so they don't have to pay for the care. If a hospital delayed and didn't administer needed care they can be sued. If it's the government, like every other dealing with the government, if they screw up you are fucked with zero recourse.

Ever have the government lose important paperwork of yours? I have. You are fucked with zero recourse. Ever see that woman at the DMV with the really sympathetic look in her eyes? Yeah, me either.
Go look up health insurance “rescissions”.

On a side note, My mother was in the hospital with bacterial meningitis (her specific variety had as high as a 20% fatality rate). She was there for over a month battling this med resistant bacteria. She had close to 50,000$ in bills once she was out of the hospital. We have insurance and a good one at that.
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Old 08-25-2009, 10:29 PM   #137
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How do you both feel about mandatory armed forces service for, say, a year or two? too much russia?
On the one hand, I probably would have benefited from a year of solid ***-kicking, discipline, and reality checking between HS and college.


On the other hand, think about how many 18 year olds there are in the US as compared to most countries that have a mandatory service policy. My primary concern here is not so much the morale of the individual conscripts as it is the ability of the Armed Forces to deal with (and effectively utilize) such a massive influx of personnel.

In the US, there are 540,000 active-duty personnel in the Army, 327,000 in the Air Force, 332,000 in the Navy, 204,000 Marines, and 42,000 Coast Guard. That's a total of 1,445,000 active-duty personnel.

There are approximately 2,200,000 eighteen year old males in the US, and just under 2,100,000 eighteen year old females. We'll assume that the number of these individuals fit for military service (those who would not be disqualified under traditional draft / enlistment guidelines due to health, disability, etc) is 82%, the historical average. That's 1,804,000 males and 1,722,000 females.

Obviously, some of these people are already in the armed forces. I don't have accurate data on this number, but let's say that of all the current servicemembers, 20% are 18 year old males and 2% are 18 year old females. That leaves 1,515,000 males who need to be conscripted, and 1,693,100 females.

Now, if we follow the tradition of conscripting only males, we're talking about doubling the size of the armed forces overnight. I'm just not sure that we have the capacity to deal with that sort of influx. We'd have to approximately double the total defense budget, for starters. And realistically, those new personnel are going to be disproportionately directed towards the Army and Marine Corps, as the Air Force, Navy and USCG would have a much harder time justifying putting a conscript through specialty training with the understanding that they're only going to be around for a year.



FWIW, Mexico's national draft lottery procedure is actually pretty amusing. Everybody stands at attention, and as each person's name is called, a child draws a colored ball from a bag. White ball = Army, blue ball = Navy / Marines, black ball = exempt.
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Old 08-26-2009, 12:33 AM   #138
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The military deserves better than to have to take everybody. It is and should be a selective process made up of people with real desire to be there.
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Old 08-27-2009, 06:07 PM   #139
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The military deserves better than to have to take everybody. It is and should be a selective process made up of people with real desire to be there.
The Israelis would disagree with you; not only that, there forces are bad-***! The difference? The people there -want- to be there...
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Old 08-27-2009, 06:57 PM   #140
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The first 20+ years of draftees would suck. However when you grow up, knowing from day one you will be serving, that is a whole different deal. All, or the great majority, serving in some capacity can do a lot for national pride and sense of community also.
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