sixshooter

iTrader: (12)

Depending upon what your ASVAB scores are, you have a HUGE variance in what they will offer you. My brother had $40k in student debt forgiven AND got a big cash bonus because he had a bunch of computer and electronic savvy and is really smart. The recruiter wanted to sign him as a cook or truck driver because that's what the recruiter needed to fill. But he wasn't falling for it. And he got a MOS with some really good training in communications/satellite equipment and such. He busted *** and kept his nose clean, and was a leader in basic training and all of his schools (he was a few years older than the standard recruit) and made rank quickly.

The recruiter will tell you to "sign here" and you can choose to change MOS later but it is a lie. Get what you want in writing up front. Recruiters are allowed to lie. If it isn't on a paper contract it never happened. Shop the different services against each other. Make the recruiters offer you better opportunities than the other guy. Skip the Marines if you want a skilled job (sorry Marines) that involves using your brain and keeping your hands clean.

Dann0

I told my wife just a few weeks ago that if I could go back and talk to 18 year old me (and didn't go in the military, which I conditionally recommend), I'd recommend going into the skilled trades. I'm in a doctorate level graduate program now, and looking at $150,000 in student debt by the time I'm done - my first student loans ever. But if I'd gotten a start in an in-demand skilled trade when I was your age, I'd be looking at upper management or opening my own business now, and making money rather than spending it. The trick, no matter what you do (and certainly in the military), is to be hungry, and work harder and smarter than your peers. You'll have opportunities presented to you, or be able to pursue them on your own, when all your "do the minimum" coworkers are stuck.

It usually takes ten years to get to a place of mastery and real financial security no matter what job you're in, if you're willing to work. If you start that ten years now, think of the step-up you'll have on your peers who spend their twenties partying and don't get traction until they're thirty. Trust me - it's worth it.

Forrest95M

Did you not go into the military? That sentence confuses me

Dann0

Yeah, I can see how it would. I actually attended the US Air Force Academy, but was medically discharged before graduation. Although cadets are technically active duty, I never had a duty station outside of USAFA. This produced what we will call a crisis of confidence. All my friends were going on to fly jets or snoop around in OSI, and I was going back to my hometown unable to walk right. Even now, over a decade later, it can still be a tender subject.

MartinezA92

iTrader: (4)

I decided to be a mechanic right out of high school, and about 4 years later I hated it. A lot. As previously stated, jobs like this will take a lot out of you. I'm only 26 and my body feels like its 40. Also the pay sucks, dealership politics are ******* terrible, and its just not fun having to find a rattle underneath a dashboard that is only present at 17.6 mph on a 40 foot stretch of Main St between the hours of 3 and 4 AM. For free.
Now I'm an engineering major. Paid my way through a CC until I transferred and now I'm taking loans. Nothing wrong with loans.

Basically, +1 on going to CC. However I have seen a lot of people go to CC and never leave or end up dropping out entirely, so my advice is try not to lose focus while you're there.

samnavy

iTrader: (7)

I know guys who didn't make 1000 on the SAT and literally aced the ASVAB. You should do well.

Your ASVAB score determines most of what ratings you qualify for. Nothing is off the table before the test unless you have pre-existing medical conditions. After the test, you need to shop recruiters from each service and do your homework on commitments.

For example, the Air Force cyber-school might be a year long and you have a 6yr commitment after that. You're not likely to advance ranks while in school, so your paycheck won't increase and the school might be in Oklahoma in winter. And then your first duty assignment is guaranteed 3 years in North Dakota.
Or... the Navy school might be only 6 months in Key West with a 4 year commitment and opportunity to make E-3 upon graduation, and probable orders to San Diego or Virgina Beach. You could be an E-7 in the Navy before the Air Force will make you an E-5 (or vice-versa)... and literally do the exact same job.
If you're just looking for a 4yr gig and get out... your choices of initial duty location possibilities might weigh on your decision.

Rates that are growing will advance people faster... rates that people never get out will have a slow advancement rate... you might make E-5 in 4 years, but be stuck there for another 10 because once guys make E-6, they never get out so there are no spots at the higher rank for you to promote to. The size of the military is set by congress, so the Navy can't just decide they need more Ensigns next year and start up more OCS classes... the numbers are all fixed. Your recruiter should allow you to see the advancement percentages of each rate over the last decade... or all that shiz is a quick google.

Here's a link: http://ec.militarytimes.com/static/p...ctive-Duty.pdf

This graph shows each enlisted rating in the Navy... the chart left to right are E-6 (First Class Petty Officer, equivalent to Staff Sergeant), then E-5 (Second Class, Sergeant), then E-4 (Third Class, Corporal).
The columns in each chart show the rating (YN= Yeoman, ABE= Aviation Boatswains Mate Equipment, SO= Special Operator)... any questions on any of them, just ask. Then the total number of people that are eligible to take advance to that rank (you are eligible to promote up a rank if you have the required time-in-service at your current rank), the number of quotas the Navy has and the percentage that makes... then the MAP (Meritorious Advancement where CO's get to choose people to promote even though they didn't make the cut, kinda like a "Battlefield Promotion").

The 227 column to the right is the numbers from the previous advancement cycle... probably Fall 2014.

So, if you look at ABE's (guys who run the catapult and arresting gear on aircraft carriers and launch/recover aircraft) trying to make E-6, only 8 out of 294 will make it. Most of those guys will have been E-5's for like 5-6 years and been in over 10... so it's very tough to promote in that rank.
However, you can see that a lot of ratings promote fairly well. A 20% advancement each cycle isn't all that bad... there are 2 advancement cycles per year, so that might be 40% per year when you do all the higher math.

THIS IS JUST HOW THE NAVY DOES IT:
Promoting from one rank to another from E3-E6 is based on a point system and a ratings test. If you score "Sailor of the Year" and get yourself a cool medal, plus hold a few collateral duties in the command, plus your warfare pins, you get points... then you have to smoke your rating exam that tests both general Naval Knowedge and your in-rating knowledge... then they take the top XX% of test passers and THEN they rack&stack the points and the top XX number of people promote.

Machinist Mate ratings look decent... but also, there are several different types of MM's... Nuke, Weapons, and Aux. Your marketability on the outside is pretty huge though if you're a blue-collar kind of guy.

I will second what SIXSHOOTER said... there is no such thing as "you can change rate after you sign" bullshit. While it's true that people do change from one rating to anther, the occurrence is rare and only typically when one is overmanned and others are undermanned. It certainly doesn't happen quickly or often. Do not let your recruiter talk you into signing up for one rate and promising you can change it in boot camp... that **** does not happen.

However, there are a lot of guys who sign up "undesignated" for some reason and choose to strike for a particular rating after they get to their first duty-station. For example... a guy will come in as an undesignated Airman after boot-camp and join his first squadron. He'll be running the "line-shack"... moving aircraft, flight-line, wash-jobs, kinda like a general airport grunt... and all the while, learning a little about the other aviation rates. After 6 months, he might attempt to get designated in an actual rate by taking an exam and then become an AM "Aviation Structural Mechanic" or AO "Aviation Ordnanceman" or whatever.

Fingers tired...

ridethecliche

iTrader: (2)

So, I'll throw my voice into the mix.

First of all, it's awesome that you're thinking about this now instead of assuming that ****'s just going to work out because everyone is telling you it will. So kudos for that.

Like everything else in life, the fact that going to college is a good decision doesn't mean that there aren't tiers to how good of a decision it is and that certain tiers of that decision make no sense. Take Sixshooter for instance: psych, while really freaking cool doesn't really have much of a solid financial path unless you have a clear trajectory in mind. What do I mean by this? Well if you want to go into counseling and social work vs going further into getting a psy D, then that changes things especially based on your interests. If you're interested in academics or in a field where 'prestige' matters, then sure it might matter where you go, for everything else the cheapest reasonable option is a good idea. Whether that cheapest reasonable offer is a community college for pre-reqs and a state school for the final two years, or if it's a private school that decided to be nice and throw money at you. This is where people mess up. Applying to one school, and a state school at that, means that you have no idea what you're worth, so to speak. I applied to a **** ton of colleges in 2006 and got the most money from a private school that happened to be the best ranked of anywhere I got into. They just had more money to throw at students for whatever reason. It was more expensive for me to go to one of my state schools!

Do your research. The military isn't going anywhere. They will always want you unless you screw something up or are disqualified in some other way. They do own you to a good degree, so it's something to think about.

Honestly, if you're uncertain about the future you should take a year or two to regroup and take classes at a local state school or community college and get your pre-reqs out of the way before going into that program. Even doing that for a year while working and saving up money is going to help out a ton. You're a smart kid and it'll pay dividends.

On the other side, 30k a year might sound like a lot especially if you consider interest, but there's nothing that says that you can't work during school. Given the fact that you have a work history with something that involves skills, you can work through school. You honestly have a ton of free time in undergrad in most majors that aren't engineering or the hard sciences because those can be unpredictable if you're required to do research (experiments have a knack for not working when you have to be somewhere on time).

You could probably offset a good amount of that 30k cost by working part time during school. 15-20 hours a week during weeks that aren't the week before and during finals should be pretty manageable. Athletes spend about that much time training and traveling for games most weeks and have plenty of time to do schoolwork and have a social life. The other plus for this is that when you start working after college, you can keep doing this to supplement your income or to build up capital for your business should you choose to start it.

How you live after you graduate makes a huge difference. Are you going to spend your first salary acting like you have no loans or are you comfortable living frugally for a couple of years after graduation to put a huge dent into your loans? That's the best time for it because chances are that you won't have a family and mortgage right after you graduate so it's a good time to take it a bit easy on the bar tabs and use the money to pay off loans.

I'm still in grad school, but one of the biggest issues I've seen in my field is that folks get their first 'real' job and spend like they've been working there for a decade. It makes no sense.

You're on the right track. Start talking to people that work in the field you're interested in. See what salaries are like after graduation and with 10 years experience. See what people think the field is going to be doing in the future.

Edit: Forgot to add that you can choose to live off campus if it's allowed. College room/board costs are often an order of magnitude higher than what you'd pay if you were renting a room in an apartment and cooking a bit of your own food.

leboeuf

iTrader: (1)

First off, its great that you're seeking advice. The responses you've gotten have all been the thoughtful insights we come to expect from our miata brethren.
I'll try giving a different perspective based on what has worked for me.
First my background: I'm a cyber-security/microelectronics engineer. I've been in the business for about 10 years. I started my career by doing a full time co-op with xilinx here in NM (fpga company). This was probably the best decision I made in school. I finished undergrad a year late, but learned more about work, myself and what I wanted than I ever would have on my own (LESSON 1). I continued with xilinx full time after undergrad and stayed in school to finish my masters in EE. It sucked, there were a lot of late nights due to working 60 hour weeks and doing school work, but it was done in 3 years. After 5 years with xilinx, they shut down my site and I was laid off at the ripe age of 26. It sucked... I had a mortgage and a newly married wife in grad school... (LESSON 2) After that I took a job with Intel in Oregon. It was a job in computer aided design and not the circuit design world I was used to. I never fit in with Intel. The company wanted one dimensional cog workers to fit into their machine. I was reprimanded multiple times for doing things outside of the box with methods they weren't familiar with (LESSON 3). After that I took a job back in NM doing pure research and development. It's been an awesome job. I more or less work on unsolved problems and am given a lot of resources to do things as I see fit.

LESSON 1: The hardest thing about work for me was having to show up and perform at a high rate every damn day of your life. It was at this point in my career that I learned to NEVER shy away from challenges... If you're being paid to figure out stuff that no one else has figured out then you're doing it right. Also this is where I learned that while school is important, it is merely a foot in the door of your career. You're not going to get paid to repeat crap you learned in school; you'll get paid well to figure out things no one else has.

LESSON2/3: You're going to get kicked in the nuts no matter how hard you work. You can pour your lifeblood into something and still be cast aside like a burned out cigarette butt. I also learned that regardless of how awesome a geographic location is (Portland was cool), I personally can't handle a densely populated area. Where you live determines a lot about your life; when you can retire; how much money you need to make; how many freaking gaper skiers clog the damn mountian when it snows with their freaking gaper prius's in the way of my *&$^% powder day (ARRRGGGGGG)... skiing was aggravating in the PNW... At least compared to the promise land that is NM.

LESSON3: Sometimes you need to make a paycheck and be grateful for the work, no matter how you feel about it. This was Intel for me. I was bored and undervalued, but I never took the job for granted and continued to do whatever I could to learn new skills. NEVER stop investing in yourself. NEVER get stagnant and comfortable. Humanity didn't get to where it is by being comfortable. The post ww2 generation is over. My grandfather raised a family of 5 being a paint salesman... those days are dead. You must remain flexible and valuable. NEVER stop evaluating your capabilities and NEVER stop looking on the horizon for the next opportunity.

You'll notice some things in my little story: I've never been a business owner; never taken any major risks; never made a major career change; I've always worked for semi-large to large companies.
I point that out not as a recommendation but to show that regardless of the path I chose, there are countless options in life. I've had a relatively stable career, but I'm sure I've missed out on interesting stuff because of it. I'm sure you'll be different than me.

My final piece of advice: Keep your goals in mind, but never lose sight of what you don't want to do with your life. I worked as a commercial fisherman between semesters during early undergrad. While there was a career path there that probably led to much more money than I make now, the work was anything buy stimulating. I never lost sight that I wasn't willing to give up my interests in the pursuit of maximizing money intake.

Good luck!

aidandj

iTrader: (5)

NM sounds nice. Had no idea there was a tech industry. I don't like Portland much either, but we're planning to move outside of the main area.

PM me so we can keep the rest of this convo on track but I'm an EE who doesn't like densely populated areas and am interested in what you do.

Alumilo

iTrader: (1)

I just graduated with a B.S. in mechanical engineering (I graduated HS in 2007, I took the slowboat to a degree). I owe $19k in loans, I could have kept it to $15k but I got a little lazy. I did the community college route. Had a few friends who were in the military, went to community college same as me, and used GI bill while at the university. They have zero debt. The community college route was good for me, as I didn't know what I wanted when I started. Whatever you do, keep debt to a minimum. When I look back, more than anything I am grateful to have had a few jobs that forced me to develop a strong work ethic.

monkeywinky

I agree with most here about keeping debt to a minimum. I worked through college and took my time to minimize taking loans - took six years, but got a civil engineering degree. Paid off my loans within the first year since I was fortunate and able to live with my parents.

If I could do it over, I'd do the community college/transfer route, that would have been cheaper and I probably would have graduated faster. Keeping your skills relevant/marketable is applicable to any industry, so just make sure to keep that in mind. If you're engaged in what you do, though, hopefully that takes care of itself. Be adaptable and plan ahead - if you see your industry changing, try to make sure you're a part of that future.

Best of luck to you, if you have specific questions about civil engineering or whatever, feel free to PM.

z31maniac

Yep, I have a B.A. in Journalism - Public Relations. Basically worthless if you want to make any money.

I was a claim rep for State Farm first job out of school, and lucked into a Tech Writing job after applying for a different job in the same company. 9 years of experience later, in one of the cheapest markets in the country, I landed a job that puts me closer to $100k/yr than $50k/yr and a massive sign-on bonus once my RSU's vest.

But I've busted my *** at my job and been willing to move and change jobs to get there. This is my 6th Tech Writing job in 9 years.......although the first 2 I left before I got laid off (economy in 2008 than military contracts in 2011), then got laid off on the next 2 (yay oil prices than outsourcing of manufacturing of Airplane parts).

psyber_0ptix

iTrader: (4)

Oh man, I just wrote an entire story about my winding academic path, but realized that everyone has such different experiences that no one can relate. I took a very long way and I did take out loans because I had no support and was a sub par highschooler. But the cliffnotes are this, and I can expand on them if there's any interest. I was not eligable for military because of health reasons.

Graduated highschool
Took years to figure out that I wanted needed to go to school for something
Bounced around school, incurred debt, quit, paid off debt and reassessed life and goals

Enrolled in a state school (University of Rhode Island)
Started the International Engineering Program
Incurred debt
Spent a year abroad in Germany studying, doing a reasearch project, formula student, and working for BMW Group in Munich
Incurred debt
Earned degrees in Mechanical Engineering and German
Incurred debt

Was invited to pursue graduate school, tuition waived, research funded, small stipend
did not incur more debt, but deferred since i was still 'in school'
Loved the **** out of graduate research (hated the classes)
blew things up with a helium cannon, while it was on fire, and recorded it at 20,000fps
published 2 papers, presented at a conference and a symposium
prepared a third manuscript
Earned a masters
still had debt from undergrad.

Now work for the man, bored as hell, but getting paid enough to eliminate my embarrasing amount of debt within 3 years by living extremely modestly aside from my car project. Do your best in school, because it's extremely temporary in the grand scheme of life. Try to do internships and research if you can because this all counts as experience.



Things are going to change no matter what path you take. If I where to go back in time, I'd have told my past self to learn a second language, and go to school for free in Germany. But the important thing is to pursue something with a passion. It took me a couple years to figure out what it was, but it made the journey far more enjoyable. Another learned lesson is that after struggling with finances being on my own, you have to value saving far more than you can realize. Saving for a rainy day. Saving for the future and retirement, and by all means, living within your means. Something that isn't stressed or taught in school. Yes I incurred debt, but I honestly can't say that I'd have traded it as I needed to learn my lesson the hard way, because I'm a stubborn asshat like that. But more importantly the friends I've made abroad are some of my closest, and the experience in another culture was incredible.

Seems you have a better head on your shoulders and I wish I could be in your position. For now, I look for more interesting work and Grad programs back in Germany, but approach everything with the idea of doing your best, it'll only be temporary and along the way you'll find out where you best fit. Skilled trades and adaptable degrees are great. I wish I knew more about Data Science as that seems like it will be the hot topic in the future (and potentially saturated).

miata2fast

iTrader: (2)

Lots of good stories and advice here so far. The only thing I can really contribute, is don't be afraid to follow what your heart tells you to do. Parents often have a hard time resisting the temptation to steer their children in the direction they think they should go. Also, don't ever be afraid to work hard and put your time into mastering a skill set. If you are persistent in working hard, learning from others, and learning from your mistakes, you will be just fine.

As far as the landscape industry is concerned, just like any industry, there are winners and there are losers. You need to make sure you are in the right vehicle for success. You might consider working in the industry for a while until you decide what you really want to do. You already have some experience, which will give you an advantage in making a reasonable salary in the meantime.

Fireindc

iTrader: (13)

this made my day.

Padlock

Graduated H.S. in May 2010
Graduated with my B.S. Mechanical Engineering in May 2015

Could've paid most of it off as I went due to paid internships throughout my summers and the fact I worked on campus 15-20 hours a week, but instead took the "enjoy college while your in it" route and paid half as I went while enjoying wrenching on cars, buying a pretty decent car at the time my sophomore year, and dumping money on things I probably shouldn't have. I did learn a lot about what I know about cars now thanks to the money spent wrenching with buddies and made a lot of friends from track days, shows, etc so no regrets on having something enjoyable those years. Most of my internship interviewers loved the fact I was hands on with projects of my own (vs a book smart kid who never touched a wrench in his life) so who knows the car hobby could've helped me out from a job placement standpoint. Never had an issue finding a job whether it be part time in college or full time after college. Walked out with $25k in debt and a $5k medical bill (long story). All will be paid off in less than 2 years of graduation while living completely on my own, having bought, sold, and played with quite a few cars in the process, building up a savings emergency fund, and still putting a healthy sum of money into a retirement fund. Life is good for the most part, it'll be awesome once this huge monthly payment I'm making towards my debt is gone. Currently working in project management for an automotive / commerical / heavy duty cooling module (Radiators, Oil Coolers, Intercoolers, etc) Tier 1 supplier and it's going well. I'm personally not huge on being at a desk most of my day, but good pay, good benefits, products relevant of my interests, and decent amount of vacation fixes those sad feelings. While it would've been nice to not have as much college debt, I had fun with it so not a whole lot I would change.

If my advice is worth anything here's a few comments even though I'm pretty sure they've been mentioned.

If you are unsure what you want to do, go to a community college part time, keep working full time if you can, and save your money until you have something narrowed down. There's no shame in not knowing what you want to do yet. Too many times have I seen kids blindly taking general education classes at a 4 year college because they feel they have to go, end up switching majors 2+ times, and spending 6+ years to get a bachelors degree (or just dropping out) with far too much debt to escape from quickly. Kids that do this bury themselves in quite the hole without even realizing it sadly.

I'd only really spend the time going to a 4 year school and incurring debt if you know the job market outlook for what you want to go for is promising. Incurring debt for a job you can't find doesnt help you much. Prices vary a lot but just throwing out numbers, spending $40k+ to get a job that pays $40k a year isnt very attractive either. You could learn a trade and make the same $40k+ money with no (or very minimal) debt.

On the note of trades, if you have any local companies that offer apprenticeship programs for high school graduates I'd be all over that if they interest you. On the job training for a needed manufacturing position isn't a bad deal if you're confident you'll be with the company for enough time to "master" your skill. We have a few apprentices at my company, for being right out of high school they are in a pretty good position to grow within that career.

calteg

iTrader: (18)

Tons of good advice. I'll add the following:

If you're not going to college for STEM, it's probably not worth it.

Start at a community college. Not only is it much cheaper, but the classes are laughably easy. I cruised my way to a community college 4.0 which, in turn, led to a nice scholarship when I transferred to a major university.

People assume debt is unilaterally terrible. It's not. Student loan debt will likely be some of the lowest interest debt you will ever have. I graduated university over a decade ago and still have student debt by choice. Continually putting money into a Vanguard IRA has proved to be a much, much better financial decision than paying off my 2.99% student debt.

Trades and the Military both both viable options, provided you get in young and advance quickly to preserve your body.

Whatever you do, grow your network. Your network is far, far, far more likely to land you a job than anything in your background. I've held several jobs over the past 11 years, and I only interviewed for one. Even in the age of the internet and EOE, a personal recommendation from the right person goes a long way.

Protect your reputation, professional and personal. It takes years to build, and just one bad decision to destroy.

viperormiata

iTrader: (24)

You'll figure it out, man. If you would have told me 5 years ago that I'd be where I am now I would said you're crazy.

2007-2010
>Graduated High School (barely) in 2007 with a **** GPA - had pneumonia and strep throat TWICE my senior year and missed 50 days of school
>Rolled into the local college because I had no idea what the hell I was doing
>Discovered I loved mathematics and took everything I could at light speed to get out of the Keys
>Transferred to UCF for Mech. Engineering
>Got annihilated by the recession while living in Orlando
>Lost all work and my home
>Lived in bathtub at friend's apartment
>Returned home after 1 semester with less than 80 dollars to my name

2011-2014
>Go see doctor because I can't sleep
>"You're over 350lbs, pre-diabetic, heart is going to stop in your sleep"
>ohfuck.png
>Get slave job at outdoor restaurant
>Join a gym to lose weight
>Make a promise that if I can lose enough weight to join military then I'll join
>lose 150lbs
>Go to join Army as a Warrant Officer and find out at MEPS that I'm colorblind
>Flag on my medical raises questions and they find my MRI for my spine issues (degrading disc disease, spinal stenosis, bulging/compressed disc)
>Get permanently disqualified from all branches of the military due to being an insurance risk
>22 months of enlistment time and 3 years of work gone

2015-Present
>Used new found weight loss skills to become a personal trainer
>Contract as a private business out of the gym I trained at
>Small business owner with steady and dedicated client base
>Started my own powerlifting team and developing a brand
>Happy for the first time in a long time

I'm 28 now. My plan is to go back to school for Physical Therapy. I'm completely obsessed with the changes the human body can make and PT would just be an extension of personal training on a more professional level. It's going to be at least 5 years of school and I'll be close to my mid 30's by the time I'm done, but that's okay. If for some reason I hate it or it doesn't work out I'd be just as happy being a welder, electrician or a plumber. I envy those who get to use their hands for work.

Good luck, man. Nothing wrong with working hard but make sure you take time to enjoy this one life you have.

Dann0

Hey, just to put a bug in your ear - if you're thinking about PT school, look into chiropractic, too. I'm a student at chiro school right now, and my roommate is a powerlifter out of Supertraining Gym (Mark Bell's joint) in Sacramento, and there are a lot of competitive bodybuilders/powerlifters in the school. A little different than PT, but if you have that interest in the human body, it might be a good fit. PM me if you want to talk about chiro/PT.

Padlock

Not to derail the conversation, but these days I think a 3% student loan for a majority of your money is a bit of a dream based on personal experiences. Over half of my total debt was above 5% and that's the best that was offered through the FAFSA loans. To be more specific, I had 6 loan groups upon graduation ranging from 3-6.5%. Obviously there are ways around this with good debt management and it's true you aren't losing much at a 3% rate as its essentially inflation correction, but regardless I don't feel like education loans aren't something to take lightly without a plan.