FM and BEGI learning something from jap tuners!?
 

I just thought it was interesting how the two are both using big ass horizontal core ICs now, even though they've always preached the benefits of smaller, vertical core ICs.:gtfo:

http://www.flyinmiata.com/projects/c...flip.php?x=627

I remember recently reading about Corky Bell reversing himself on his vertical-flow-is-better beliefs. He's behind BEGI and the FM kits are descended from the original BEGI kit, right?

Anyway, as "well thought-out" as their kits supposedly are, I've always thought FM's charge pipe routing and general IC configuration looked a lot more complicated than need be.

ha funny. They need those large IC's to cool all the hot air the tiny turbo's FM uses at a high psi. Jeez I was looking at a dyno plot they had the other day of a greddy making ~265whp. For now I will subtract 20whp from their dyno plots to get a realistic number. :gay:

i know the guy who bought the "yellow submarine" off FM a few years back. a built-motor 1.6, blah blah blah. he went to a local dyno shop and the car was making 30-40hp LESS than the FM dyno showed. :gay:

btw, my BEGI intercooler system arrived this week. decided to buy it from Corky rather than FM...Corky's good people.

Ttiwwp @ Kfj

http://home.carolina.rr.com/skrause2...egi-ic-kit.jpg
i have the other half out in the shop here at work. i'm inspecting all the pieces and test fitting them out of the car during lulls. all nicely powdercoated. could there be a better system? sure, but it's difficult to find one this complete and proven.

oh yah...my free FM downpipe arrived yesterday. :gay:

it's used, it's stainless, it's from california, it's in terrific condition. i paid the price of shipping.

Yes yes yes we all know the price that woolery charged you.

:drama:

It's so funny to hear some of you guys talk on this forum. Why are you bashing FM? Yes, they're not the second-coming of christ, but they did help jump-start what's turned out to be quite a respectable aftermarket scene for the Miata.

Is some of their stuff over-priced? Maybe. But I don't see a whole heckuva lot of other turbo kits out there in their price range to compare, anyway.

Could certain parts of their kits be designed better? Sure. But Corky designed the bulk of their "hard points" many moons ago, most of them requiring only very minor upgrades over the years. There's no doubt they're proven and reliable. Now that they've split, both are going back to the drawing board to make certain parts of the kit better.

If it weren't for FM, we'd not have had such tremendous support for the Link ECU, as they basically built a bespoke ECU kit specifically for the car. Furthermore, nobody else stepped up to the plate to get the Hydra working on the Miatas, so that's one more ECU that has Miata-specific support (how many others are there that having wiring harnesses, tuning maps, etc. just for the Miata? AEM's had a wiring harness, I think...but I don't know that they even support it anymore for the Miata).

Anywho, I just think it's funny. I know we all love to save a buck or two on this board, but c'mon, give credit where it's due. I don't see any of us out there creating cast manifolds, working with ECU vendors and designing complete turbo kits for the aftermarket.

yes, flying miata really "brought it all together". it's a solid kit, it's sure pretty reliable. they've done a tremendous job marketing themselves and establishing their brand.

their stuff is pretty expensive. their support is awesome. i bought my link USED and they still walked through a lot of n00b stuff. how cool is that? the things that leave a bad taste in my mouth is the one or two employees they have who like to bash other vendors or companies. i really don't like the smugness of some of the fm loyalists, either.

i've never met anyone from fm face to face, but i've talked to a few on the phones. Bill cardell was nice enough to talk to me for about 20 minutes about some questions i had a few years back. i've now also talked with corky bell on the phone and he's a genuinely nice man. both of those guys certainly know my miata far better than i do. they're also very confident in their products and i think time has proven them correct.

it's a business, their not into it to GIVE it away. it's not exclusive. i think the pieces i have now are head and shoulders above my greddy pieces i had, i just can't afford to buy the fm/begi stuff new.

That's my main problem. Corky bell, is knowledgable as he is, is held up as infallable and a lot of his/FM's followers always characterized big, horizontal ICs as inefficient and acted like Bell/FM were the only folks in the world who knew anything about turbocharging. Funny how they've had to reverse some ideas to catch up with everyone else.

I like FM just fine, if I was a dentist or something, someone with not much time and a lot o money, I would get their kit over any other.

I ordered my oil/water lines and fittings from them, after all.

Same here, there are many FM nutswingers on m.net who pooh-pooh DIY, Greddy kits, etc. every chance they get. I see "save your money for a 'real' turbo kit" or perpetuation of the belief that every Greddy kit is destined to fall apart. Shit like that.

FM themselves make what look like excellent products, but that doesn't mean that those who go custom can't make something just as good or better, and come to know a lot more about their car and setup in the process.

It is true FM does do a lot of good work and if it wasnt for them miatas might not have as many good go fast parts. The truth is FM doesnt make a lot of the products they sell (at usually a nice markup.) so they would still exist even if there was no FM. Susport for those parts would be proabably lacking though..

I think the issue for me is the smug FM owners, the guys that own/operate FM are great guys. I too cant stand 80% of the miata.net guys that jizz them selves over how there is an Ubercharged/FM XIVIICI (Dont get me wrong Ubercharged miatas sound great!) miata that makes like 300whp when there are other cars out there, like hondas that are making double that. FM is a good company but jesus, some of FM's fanboys need to just shut up sometimes.

My main issue with the company is it's dyno's. I dont feel that they are accurate. This may be do to them overcorrecting for elevation or they dyno the cars on like a 5c day I dunno. Their ~185whp from their FMI doesnt look so good when it might be 10 to 20 less whp when you take it to your local dyno. I know that with dyno's its like everyone is measuring the same thing with different rulers but still, If you end up with 165-175whp for 3800+ price of clutch and other crap that doesnt seem that great to me.
I am sure a lot of FMII owners would be susprised that there are a crap load of GReddy'ed cars out there that are faster and were built for usually a lot less, but they will still bash on it :gay: .
That said I really dont try to go out of my way to bash FM. My first post was more of a joke than anything.
I do feel though that the Miata world in general can learn a lot from other car guys. A good number of miata.net'ers will bash cars like hondas but they dont seem to realise that there are honda guys that are N/A that make 200whp+ and with a decent suspension setup would be faster than a lot of the boosted miatas. A lot of guys need to realise that the miata isnt the best car in the world- its just a good car.

well-said.

I have a few parts from FM but I don't think they are the holy grail when it comes to miata parts,They have some really good products(little on the expensive side)that work well.80% of the people on M.net have no clue what they are talking about,They think they know everything there is to know about a miata cause they have owned their car for a year and have been reading the forum for two years.I have no problem with DIY and Greddy kits(I use to have a Greddy kit)and really appreciate the creativity of individuals that do so with other alternatives other than FM or BEGI.

To be honest I dont understand why theres really any debate about tuner cars and what parts and stuff. All of the characteristics of intercoolers can be calculated of measured, so there shouldnt be any suprises. Same things with turbos, just everyones way to lazy...

I think it comes town to cost for the average joe to test out several intercoolers turbo's etc. If I had the time and resources (well I have the time ha.) I would do it. Jimb did this a while ago and it was pretty interesting to see. It would be nice if FM did some sort of test to see what the temps were before and after intercooler. (I would love to see their 1000 dollar greddy IC kit vs Jimb's with a starion or even a saab!)
You have the have the same ambient temperature in all the tests and that sometimes makes it difficult. You have to make sure you give all the intercoolers the same load of hot air from the turbo.

Yes a lot of testing needs to be done to know the answer. The only problem is a lot of Miata.net'ers are unwilling to try new things. They would like to follow the same path as others. Which isnt really a bad idea but thats why almost every suspension/power modded miata all have very simular mods. Look how many guys are running t28's, 15g or smaller turbos and how few are running larger turbo's. Also look how everyone follows the allignment settings of like 2 guys on miata.net. Hell there is a metric crapload of miata's useing kyb-agx's (I am on this list but hey I got them cheap!) and koni's (there are a few others too). Is there a better shock out there? Proabably but is anybody willing to try something that hasnt been tried and posted on miata.net?

This isnt to harp on the average miata.net'er and say they are some how stupid for playing it safe, but playing it safe has its down sides when everyone is using the same or simular setup.

There was a thread with a 600whp BP a while back (it was in a 323) and the constant bickering forced the mods to close the thread. Which is extreamly retarded becuase I am sure somebody wanted to learn from its setup but the nazi mod staff was too quick too close the thread. They should of just deleted the offending posts and let discussion continue in what should be considered a huge achievment in the miata/BP world.

i was a little bored during lunch, so i assembled the intercooler piping in my office. the parts not shown are the dustpan intake, the AFM mount and transition, the BOV, and a few other smaller pieces:

http://home.carolina.rr.com/skrause2...cooler-kit.jpg

Are those FM's IC pipes? If so I think they look good. The IC pipes look like they would work on a car with PS and AC and not have ground clearance issues. They do not look overcomplex or anything...

While i agree in some aspects, the efficiency of an intercooler will be alot easier to determine (since it wont change from car to car, and I dont see why it would change really from turbo to turbo) than the performance of a shock... Well even without calculating it you could do some thermodynamic flow analysis on it, but thats way over my head. And i dont think you would need the same ambiant temp

that's a BEGI intercooler system. you got it right, too...it's for a car w/ AC and PS.

back in the day, FM had a guage with a dual needle. it was an air temp gauge. one sender was mounted before the IC, the other after. it let you monitor the change in IATs.

Ambiant temp affects the IC's ablity to cool the intake air. The colder the air (and in most cases the amount of air.)that is blowing on it the better it works. If the air thats blowing on the intercooler varies between the tests then they will be inaccurate. If a small intercooler that doesnt work the best has 5c air blowing on it it proabably will work better than a large intercooler with 30c air blowing onto it. To just say, "welp 1 intercooler cools the air by 7c and the other by 10c the 10c intercooler has to be better" even if the conditions were different isnt valid. Also there is the issue of pressure loss threw an intercooler. The greater the loss the the faster the turbo has to spin to make the same amount of boost measured at the intake manifold. Faster the turbo has to spin usually results in more heat. This can lead to diminishing returns... I am sure you guys already know this.. sorry
Oh for shocks there is shock dyno's. I know little about them but I guess they could be used to compair shocks. Also you can test shocks by seeing which one is faster on average around the track. Right???

By taking into account the temperature difference the efficency of intercoolers can still be compared. But some base measurements would need to be taken to see what kind of effect the amb air really has on the Temp at the inlet of the intercooler. But once you have a relationship and with some assumptions you should be able to model the effciency. Once you have a model you can set the intake temp for all the models and compare effciencies, hell even throw in cost effectiveness. You can do it with measuring all the T_amb being the same but it will be easier just to make a model and enter the day for each test..

Oh great. All this talk about fm has made this place as pointy as m.net.

Are you talking about me and medisyn? I dont think anythings pointy, I think were just discussing the techincal aspects of testing efficiency. If you had a place with consant temp/pressu/rehumidity...etc...etc it would be very easy, but since that is near impossible. I think you would have to model the intercooler (heat exchanger) and then input the operating temp.

If it ever came to a point where I needed to figure out intercooler effiencny Id find away to model them, but I think it would be nice if other people did for me :)

I forgot the smilies. Was meant to poke fun only. :D

Hrmm maybe I am wrong, it just seems to me the air blowing on the intercoolers (the amount and temp) would have to be the same to make an accurate compairison. Well at least it would make it a lot easer to test :)
Math never was nor never will be my strong suit :gay: Passing college level math was a pain in the ass form me!

The FM kit's are NOT FOR THE DIY people out there. People who want a very good, complete, and reliable turbo kit for their miata are willing to pay extra for not having to trouble shoot and go on m.net for problems and advise. They want to install it and leave it for years of problem free boost. O and by the way FM2 is the best turbo kit you can buy for a miata out right now bar none, it may not be fastest, may not be cheapest, but OVERALL it is the best.

I dunno, I really like the looks of BEGi's new kit right now. I think I'd take that over an FM kit (if I had a 1.8L car) and add an ECU down the road if I had the dough.

i'm telling you, if you have the patience, you can build your own FM/BEGI kit. i think especially now with BEGI and FM upgrading their parts, finding second hand parts is going to be easier.

i found the FM3 manifold on ebay. it was ~$150. the downpipes aren't that hard to find. with FM new cast unit and BEGI's new one with the divorced wastegate, the pointies are dumping their perfectly good stainless 2.5" pipes to have "the latest and greatest".

if i had been quicker on the draw, i could have had my intercooler system for cheaper than new.

i think an fm kit CAN be DIY, if you're able/willing to refurbish the parts.

all i've have to do so far is clean up the parts and spec the mating surfaces.

I already have my own turbo setup, I just meant, if I were looking for a new kit, BEGi's the direction I would start right now. I wouldn't be interested in used FM parts, as the parts I currently have on my car are nearly as good.

I'm more interested in the nice work Corky's done with the cold-air box, compressor inlet plumbing and downpipe: http://www.bellengineering.net/Image...installed2.jpg
http://www.bellengineering.net/Image...installed3.JPG
http://www.bellengineering.net/Image...wnpipe2_Lg.jpg

Those are the sorta things that I just wouldn't have the patience to make...at least not to that level of quality and beauty :)

Is that a finished kit? Because the welds are gorgeous.... which is why i wonder if that is what shipping.

Well, that's what they've touted as a finished, shipping kit at this point, so yes. I mean, check out how complex that compressor-inlet-to-MAF piece is.

i understand that, but the interchangeability between fm and begi is still there. the support and quality is awesome.

Then it is NOT the best!! :td:
Remember the saying: you can have Cheap, you can have quality, or you can have Speed....choose 2.
Well from what you said FM doesn't even give you 2... :gtfo:

hahahha thats great.

any turbo will give you power/speed. the FM/BEGI gives you quality.

So WHAT IS the best IC to use ? Vertical or horizontal core ?
Which of the Starion ICs is better ? I've heard that the smaller one is better than the larger one.

depends on the application. either of he starions will handle what you're going to throw at the kit.

if it's cooling the intake charge to reduce the possibility of detonation, it's working fine.

Mitsu - 14 row or 17 row - whatever :ugh2: most say go with the larger.... There must have been a reason why Mitsu changed their design on their turbo application (they have a whole engineering team that works on this kind of thing every day - just see the new Evo VIII) :cool:

Theres engineers that design and then theres engineers that figure out how much money they can save.....

are they overpriced maybe maybe not. Lookat other turbo kits. As much as people want to bash FM or their "loylist" some of you are just as bad as the people you talk about. As much as I enjoyed being a Greddy pioneer sometimes I wish i would have gotten a FM or BEGI or another pre-fab kit in the first place. You you save money but not time. Just thinkg about it,pros and cons both ways. Dont be so quick to judge;

now back to enjoying my n/a miata

I think FM is a good company that has sort of put the miata on the map and certainly helped increase the aftermarket. There tech support is fairly good and they have been helpful on many occasions. At the same time, many of their products are a bit too expensive, their IC pipes for are hideous, and the local miata mechanic didn't speak very highly of them. I should state that I am using there ECU and it was way too expensive. But I certainly put the rest of my kit together and fabbed it myself.
-Michael-

Just being the devil's advocate (as usual :cool: ), but I don't see how powder-coated intercooler pipes that clear every bit of air conditioning and power-steering piece can be considered hideous, especially when designed to work with the "vertical" intercooler, as it's become popular to refer to.

Furthermore, I'm not sure why you consider their Link ECU overpriced, when it's basically the same price as any other ECU (and cheaper than the TEC II/III) out there, has wiring and components designed to drop right into your Miata and has more Miata-specific support than any other ECU...by a long shot...which other ECU could you purchase with default na/super/turbo maps specifically for the Miata? Sure, you could buy an ECU with more features for the same price, but you'd have to spend a TON of your own time (I don't know about you, but mine's valuable) setting it up...and it likely wouldn't be nearly as clean an install as the Link is out of the box. Do you think you'd ever be able to call up Electromotive or AEM or Motec or Megasquirt (I know, I know...just trying to make a point) and expect to get an easy answer to a Miata-specific install or tuning question?

Again, not a huge proselytizer of FM, but many of you bring the same, tired arguments to the table against FM...I suppose a lot of it depends on how much free time your lifestyle affords you...and how much your personal time is worth...and how much money you make (god knows I can't afford much from FM's catalog). But to call them over-priced...is close-minded.

Is it just me, or does this "distribution block" thing seem totally pointless?
http://www.bellengineering.net/Pages...osystems3.html

It takes all the lines to the side of the head, right next to the turbo, and then sends them to the turbo. Does anyone know the reason for it?

agreed on all points.

and "proselytizer". good scrabble word. :)

It looks like a more efficient way to run the oil and the coolant lines.

Most of the proselytizers around here have been pulled off the streets by the police undercover stings.

But more efficient how? I'm just wondering how centralizing the lines 6 inches away from the turbo is better than centralizing them... on the turbo. It's not exactly something that anyone has had problems or complained about, so it just seems like ---- over-engineering.

And why does it cost $150 to upgrade to a GT2560R from the GT2554R? They cost the same almost everywhere I've looked....

Agreed, for the most part...perhaps it was created merely to help keep the engine bay looking clean and uncluttered. I suppose it could help avoid potential chafing problems on other parts/belts. Looks nice enough, though.

That intercooler is quite small. You are running a small turbo, right?

gt2554r.

small for what? 250hp? yeah. 200hp? no.

It was done for cleanliness, order, and durabilily. Corky has seen a few lines running to and from the turbo fail. This just ensures they won't.

And, maybe it's over engineered a little.....
Stephanie

Threads like this cast doubt and confusion for a Miata n00bie like me. I love the price of the GReddy, but not necessarily all the reviews I've read about it (the stock kit). Now, I'm still doing my research...but so far, I've heard a lot about cracked manifolds for the kits...and expensive upgrades. I see a lot of people around here are, in fact, the DIY crowd in that they pool parts together and fit them to upgrade the base GReddy kit.

But the confusing part is all the back and forth between the FM lovers and FM haters (generalizing terms here, don't read too much into it). While some swear by the quality and overall reliability/support of the FM, others insist that it's just over priced, and could easily be reproduced by a patient DIY for less. I'm still searching for it, but it'd be nice to see a side by side comparison. A base FM kit vs. a DIY home brewed kit. Dyno numbers...installation times...reliability, etc.

That's dreaming, of course, but...again, still left confused. I get numbers, statistics and arguments from both sides...and both sides make sense, which means I bounce back and forth, unable to make up my mind. I know, first hand, that FM has awesome customer service. I've heard about a couple techs here and there not being very pleasant, or causing issues...but overall, I think FM is well known for its support...and, as a consumer, I appreciate that.

Given all this...talk of the split (BEGI and FM), the new designs and the 'sides' thrown in, where can I look for some solid guidance on a decision? Should I assume that it's something like this:

Have money, but not a lot of time = FM
Have time, but not a lot of money = GReddy/home brewed?

those are great observations and even better questions. I had a highly modified greddy system and am in process of piecing together a begi/fm fit from parts i'm finding. i think you nailed it on the head on time vs money issue, and i think everyone doing this needs to weigh the importance of their time. personally, i like the 'fit and finish' of the begi stuff i have over the greddy. to me, there are more safties incorporated into the engineering. it's not perfect though. before this forum, greddy owners were grabbing at straws for help in a way. the support for the kit is miles ahead of where it used to be a few years ago. (congratulations to phillip for running and paying for it).

i'm newly married with a (until recently) busy career and house to care for. my level of fabrication isn't what it used to be, nor can i afford the time to do it. i think if you're patient, or if you take advantage of the fm/begi split and the new parts that are rolling out, you can build an fm2 for the same price and level of a modified greddy.

one last thing...corky_is_the_MAN. he and his company have been very courteous to me and more than willing to help me with the parts i needed to build my kit. their time spent working with me and answering my questions helps me feel like i'm getting a good product from a good company. i'm not just saying this because stephanie replied to this thread, but i'm just voicing opinion and personal experience.

I certainly appreciate your input. If it can all be summed up in the terms I used at the end of my last post, then I think that will help me make up my mind. :) Until I know for sure, I'll continue researching...as I'm still looking for a vehicle.

If I had the money I would have gone with a BEGI kit, they know what they are talking about and do great service. I dont know about FM yet (they havent made any of their own prodducts, but i may be wrong) but so far they are over priced for what you get.